Corfu Bareboat Charter - Refusing to return our deposit

[nevis768]

It is not the function of banks to investigate allegations of fraud. That's a police matter. It's nonsense to say the contract is not relevant. If the charter company has withheld the deposit in accordance with the terms of the contract, they're perfectly entitled to do so. Most probably, they will have to produce a damage report and an estimate of repair costs in due course. Most probably the customer has a right to engage an expert to carry out their own assessment. Are the charter company required to produce a receipt to show the work was actually carried out? I don't know. What does the contract say. If you crash into my car I'm not obliged to get it repaired. I can decide to take the money and keep or sell the damaged car.

Actually, all banks have fraud departments and investigate fraud every day. They specifically have to investigate allegations of fraud when linked to customers payments, if a fraud allegation is made, and also if one is apparent to them. Also, the police rarely deal with fraud nowadays, there is a new body that does it. I suggest the OP rings their bank soon as, and report a disputed transaction.
Banks regularly report suspiscious transaction to the police, particularly if it involves vulnerable persons.

 

[Irish Rover]

Actually, all banks have fraud departments and investigate fraud every day. They specifically have to investigate allegations of fraud when linked to customers payments, if a fraud allegation is made, and also if one is apparent to them. Also, the police rarely deal with fraud nowadays, there is a new body that does it. I suggest the OP rings their bank soon as, and report a disputed transaction.
Banks regularly report suspiscious transaction to the police, particularly if it involves vulnerable persons.

Let's not be mixing apples and oranges here or trying to muddy the water. There was nothing suspicious about the financial transaction in this case. It was a straightforward payment made by visa card by the cardholder. I assume the OP used their pin to authorise the payment. All the OP can do is apply to their bank for "chargeback". The conditions under which chargeback may apply are limited, and in this case the only one which might apply would be "if the goods or services turned out to be faulty, counterfeit or defective". Is that the case here? I don't think so. The OP's bank would need to provide evidence to the charter company's bank to support a chargeback claim. Where's the evidence?
I feel genuinely sorry for the OP and it's an expensive lesson learned regarding deposit insurance. However, bear in mind this poster is new to the forum, and has come on making serious criminal allegations against a named charter company. Is that fair, with no evidence? Do you believe the OP never went into water less than 10M in the Ionian, never anchored in less than 10M, never went into a port at night which was less than 10M?

 

[nevis768]

Let's not be mixing apples and oranges here or trying to muddy the water. There was nothing suspicious about the financial transaction in this case. It was a straightforward payment made by visa card by the cardholder. I assume the OP used their pin to authorise the payment. All the OP can do is apply to their bank for "chargeback". The conditions under which chargeback may apply are limited, and in this case the only one which might apply would be "if the goods or services turned out to be faulty, counterfeit or defective". Is that the case here? I don't think so. The OP's bank would need to provide evidence to the charter company's bank to support a chargeback claim. Where's the evidence?
I feel genuinely sorry for the OP and it's an expensive lesson learned regarding deposit insurance. However, bear in mind this poster is new to the forum, and has come on making serious criminal allegations against a named charter company. Is that fair, with no evidence? Do you believe the OP never went into water less than 10M in the Ionian, never anchored in less than 10M, never went into a port at night which was less than 10M?

I see you've changed your tune now that the nonsense you posted about banks not investigating fraud has been shot down. I'm not mixing anything up, the OP has a disputed transaction on a card which they are entitled to challenge. The rest of what you post is not relevant. Here is the link to card disputes which the OP should read. I think it's 60 days from statement to challenge this, Disputed transactions
I also think what you are also overlooking is that the person making the allegations (in the first instance) is the person accusing the charterer of the damage, to satisfy the bank investigation they will need to prove to the banks satisfaction that the charter caused the damage, otherwise people could be (and are) charged for something they didn't do. I'm not passing judgement either way but the OP does have a way to challenge should they wish to do so.
Part of this process will be the boat hirer's reply to questions from the charterer, if the hirer doesn't reply or answer reasonable questions with evidence, or deal with the charter's complaint reasonably, then likely the chargeback will go through. That's how it works...I've done a few, and also had 2 as far as the Ombudsman, and also if the bank doesnt follow the guidelines, or tries to fob the OP off the Ombudsman can order the bank to cough up, which happened with 2 of my cases. OP feel free to DM me, but its fairly straightforward to raise this with your bank, especially because you have photos of old damage. Also, some banks will try to fob you off, so make a complaint if you have to.

 

[Annabubble]

I see you've changed your tune now that the nonsense you posted about banks not investigating fraud has been shot down. I'm not mixing anything up, the OP has a disputed transaction on a card which they are entitled to challenge. The rest of what you post is not relevant. Here is the link to card disputes which the OP should read. I think it's 60 days from statement to challenge this, Disputed transactions
I also think what you are also overlooking is that the person making the allegations (in the first instance) is the person accusing the charterer of the damage, to satisfy the bank investigation they will need to prove to the banks satisfaction that the charter caused the damage, otherwise people could be (and are) charged for something they didn't do. I'm not passing judgement either way but the OP does have a way to challenge should they wish to do so.
Part of this process will be the boat hirer's reply to questions from the charterer, if the hirer doesn't reply or answer reasonable questions with evidence, or deal with the charter's complaint reasonably, then likely the chargeback will go through. That's how it works...I've done a few, and also had 2 as far as the Ombudsman, and also if the bank doesnt follow the guidelines, or tries to fob the OP off the Ombudsman can order the bank to cough up, which happened with 2 of my cases. OP feel free to DM me, but its fairly straightforward to raise this with your bank, especially because you have photos of old damage. Also, some banks will try to fob you off, so make a complaint if you have to.

Thank you. It's appreciated.

 

[jlavery]

This is the new crack that we apparently made, although it looked like it was old damage that someone had tried to fill in. The boat was made in 2020.

If that's a crack in the bilge structure of a "modern" yacht where the bilge moulding is structural, then there's more to this.

Even hairline cracks there indicate a hard impact and need investigatoon. Was told this in a presentation to us by a surveyor at the RYA instructors conference.

A crack that size would indicate a massive impact and raise concerns about the boat's seaworthiness.

@Annabubble - am I misinterpreting the crack location?

 

[ChromeDome]

People in Greece are struggling. The country is still hanging on by its fingernails after the economic collapse, refugees and recovery plans, fuelling a parallel economy behind the scenes.

@Annabubble It's always easy to be wise in hindsight, but make sure you document everything (like saving screenshots even if you think you can find them again). All documents, photos, recorded conversations and more. Keep them in a safe place (not just a mobile phone).

Other: Car hire has been a frontrunner and now boat charters are joining the ‘seem trustworthy but make the terms so hard to understand that you can rip the customer off with contract in hand’ business model.
That's why excess insurance is more important than ever. Charter companies raise excesses to frightening heights to entice customers to buy the extra cover from them, but in 99% of cases it's cheaper to buy it from a dedicated company - and then you have the option of, say, a year's cover with various car/boat/whatever rental companies.

Have you checked if you have legal aid covered by any private insurance or linked to your credit card?

 

[Irish Rover]

they will need to prove to the banks satisfaction that the charter caused the damage,

I'm neither a banker or a lawyer and, clearly, neither are you, but I'm absolutely certain this is not how it works.
Banks investigating fraudulent transactions and investigating the type of fraud being alleged here are two entirely different matters.
If the OP is genuine, then I wish them luck, but they'd be better off talking to their bank and their lawyer than wasting time on here. They'd also be well advised to avoid making unsubstantiated allegations on a public forum and avoid exaggeration like never going inside 10M depth.

 

[nevis768]

I'm neither a banker or a lawyer and, clearly, neither are you, but I'm absolutely certain this is not how it works.
Banks investigating fraudulent transactions and investigating the type of fraud being alleged here are two entirely different matters.
If the OP is genuine, then I wish them luck, but they'd be better off talking to their bank and their lawyer than wasting time on here. They'd also be well advised to avoid making unsubstantiated allegations on a public forum and avoid exaggeration like never going inside 10M depth.

I'm afraid you are completely wrong there. Things which are regularly investigated are damage deposits being wrongly charged at holiday properties, (some landlords run their business out of these, French ski resorts are the worst). I had one of these returned by the credit card company. I've had 3 hire car excess damage deposits returned after quite obvious attempts to defraud me.(This is not so prevalent now with on line reviews) I agree with others who suggest extra annual insurance to cover excess damage costs, and take this out myself, this doesn't mean I am going to allow some unscrupulous trader to rip me off. That just puts everybody's insurance up. You are right I'm not lawyer or banker, but I did investigate fraud for both, mainly insurance companies own clients trying to rip the other side off with exaggerated claims, there's a lot of it about unfortunately, and some of these claims were huge. My other recommendation would be to pay for everything with a credit card.

 

[Irish Rover]

I'm afraid you are completely wrong there. Things which are regularly investigated are damage deposits being wrongly charged at holiday properties, (some landlords run their business out of these, French ski resorts are the worst). I had one of these returned by the credit card company. I've had 3 hire car excess damage deposits returned after quite obvious attempts to defraud me.(This is not so prevalent now with on line reviews) I agree with others who suggest extra annual insurance to cover excess damage costs, and take this out myself, this doesn't mean I am going to allow some unscrupulous trader to rip me off. That just puts everybody's insurance up. You are right I'm not lawyer or banker, but I did investigate fraud for both, mainly insurance companies own clients trying to rip the other side off with exaggerated claims, there's a lot of it about unfortunately, and some of these claims were huge. My other recommendation would be to pay for everything with a credit card.

Apples and oranges again. Credit cards and debit cards, and only the latter are relevant to this thread. We seem to be blessed, or us it cursed, with self-declared experts on this forum.
If you're right, then the OP has nothing to worry about. You say the charter company has to prove to the satisfaction of their bank's investigators that the OP caused the damage. I hope the OP will come back in due course to let us know if that's correct. If it is I'll be the first to congratulate them and say I was wrong. However, I'd advise they not make any plans for the money, just yet.

 

[tat27]

We chartered from Sail Ionian initially 11 years ago and then tried a Corfu Yacht charter via a UK broker in Sussex, to try a different area.
From the first 10 minutes I regretted it, as we were “outsourced” to another Greek charterer and there were arguments over the outboard motor & who was paying for the 10 litres of fuel.
Next morning we found that on a 40 footer there were no working mugs (literally we had to buy 4 in Gaios), mosquito screens were all ripped & the following day the anchor windlass packed up in Lakka, no engineer could be sought and we had to raise it manually.
Complaints got us a free day but I was left with no possible chance of doing business with any of them again.
Since then we have charted with Nisos and Sail Ionian & we go back in 2 weeks time again from Nidri.
From my perspective I want to be treated fairly & I do not mind paying a few quid more for the privilege as I want confidence in the kit I am renting.

 

[PabloPicasso]

I used to take a cheap underwater camera and take some underwater video/photos at the start as evidence myself. Easy in the clear water of the med.

Eauh!! Most base harbours are disgusting with blocked holding tank effluent regularly cleared out into them. I mean hundreds of times.

The paid diver earns his money diving in that.

 

[nevis768]

Apples and oranges again. Credit cards and debit cards, and only the latter are relevant to this thread. We seem to be blessed, or us it cursed, with self-declared experts on this forum.
If you're right, then the OP has nothing to worry about. You say the charter company has to prove to the satisfaction of their bank's investigators that the OP caused the damage. I hope the OP will come back in due course to let us know if that's correct. If it is I'll be the first to congratulate them and say I was wrong. However, I'd advise they not make any plans for the money, just yet.

Since recent changes from the Financial ombudsman, there isn't too much difference between debit and credit card protection. It's all about the evidence, clearly it can't be right for a hirer just to remove £2k or whatever from your account without a pretty well evidenced case for you causing damage, so if the hirer is correct and has that evidence then they will be fine, if not...depends how well the OP presents the case. But banks don't like the hassle, and try and fob you off, hence the regulator has got tough with them. If I was the OP I would be putting posts on the various FB sailing groups to see if anybody else has had similar experience. From memory, they have at least 60 days from date of the card statement to do so.
Also banks don't like complaints to the Ombudsman because they have to pay for the investigation, in my experience they are quite effective.

 

[Irish Rover]

@Annabubble As i said in an earlier post I wish you luck in achieving an acceptable solution. You came on the forum looking for advice, and you got a fair amount. I hope it helps. We get a lot of new members coming to the forum when they have a problem, and disappearing again when they've had their advice. This is an interesting topic and one which affects many boaters. Please come back and document your progress/outcome when you're in a position to do so. It will help others.