Controlled gybe in strong winds

[Neil]

Was out with an RYA instructor in a F7, practising close quarters sailing around a tight course. We had the main fully reefed and the gybes were performed well and safely. We were letting out the main going on to a broad reach for a little while before hauling in the main sheet going into the gybe, and then letting out fully again - fairly standard, I would have thought.

However, I got to wondering, after one gybe that wasn't quite timed to perfection, when the boom came across rather smartly, that under strong wind conditions, the bearing away on a broad reach to give speed through the gybe wasn't actually required, and left one more open to mistakes. I was thinking that it might be safer to pull the main sheet in as you were coming through a beam reach and using momentum and the head sail to bring you through the gybe would be enough?

 

[jimi]

what size of boat were you on? My experience is that on anything bigger, except in light winds, than a dinghy the mainsheet needs to be hauled in and controlled during the gybe as well as boat speed maximised.

 

[Angele]

Without a detailed understanding of the course that you were sailing round, it is difficult to pass comment. However, if you were doing something that involved both windward and downwind legs (say a figure of eight), then you would indeed need to ease out the main from close hauled to broad reach in order to sail efficiently. Then, haul in the main just before the gybe.

Also, the need to keep way on before gybing will vary from boat to boat (and, particularly, with keel type).

Was the instructor not simply trying to get you to trim the sails correctly for each point of sail, including tack and gybe?

 

[VicS]

I was thinking that it might be safer to pull the main sheet in as you were coming through a beam reach and using momentum and the head sail to bring you through the gybe would be enough?

A risk of broaching if the mainsail is hauled in while on a beam reach ??????

 

[jimi]

A risk of broaching if the mainsail is hauled in while on a beam reach ??????

yeah you would'nt do that on a laser ... the transom traps you all by itself ;-)

 

[Neil]

A risk of broaching if the mainsail is hauled in while on a beam reach ??????

Well, the way I was thinking it, rather than let the main out more on the broad reach before hauling back in, just start to pull in the main as you are coming through to the broad reach. It was the letting the main fully out and then having to sheet in lots coming through the gybe that got me pondering.

The boat was a 37ft Jenneau Sunfast and we were doing a triangle course.

 

[webcraft]

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To gybe safely in any wind above a zephyr the main needs to be centred before beginning to put the stern through the wind. A gybe should never be a hasty business, and attempting to do it 'on the run' so to speak and synchronising centring the boom with the stern passing through the wind is likely to result in a mistimed gybe (with possible damage/injury) eventually, even with the most experienced crew.

I don't understand the talk of centring the boom on a beam reach - this is not going to be easy, sensible or even always possible. I teach the manoeuvre by getting the helmsman to sail the boat onto a broad reach and to continue to broaden it until the genoa just begins to collapse. He holds that course - generally with the wind about 30 degrees off due aft - and asks the crew to centre the main, then gybes the boat through about sixty degrees onto the opposite (very) broad reach, with the man on the mainsheet letting it out smoothly as the stern goes through the wind.

The only time this manoeuvre might be dangerous would be in a very lumpy, unpredfictable seaway - in which case a broad reach sans preventer would be a risky point of sail and tacking might be a better option.

I also don't understand the talk of the need to keep way on the boat - the genoa will be drawing now the main is centred.

All of course IMHO, and I am sure someone will be along in a minute to shoot me down in flames.

- W

 

[graham]

Depends on the boat but generally the faster the speed the less weight in the mainsail and the more effective the rudder will be at keeping you on course.

Hauling in the main while still beam on to the wind will slow the boat down and impart huge stress on the rig and the helm. I cant see any situation where that would be helpfull.

 

[jimi]

.

I also don't understand the talk of the need to keep way on the boat - the genoa will be drawing now the main is centred.

- W

I was thinking partic of gybing in heavy wind, if you can get a surf going you effectively take 10+ knots off the windspeed.

 

[Neil]

Depends on the boat but generally the faster the speed the less weight in the mainsail and the more effective the rudder will be at keeping you on course.

Hauling in the main while still beam on to the wind will slow the boat down and impart huge stress on the rig and the helm. I cant see any situation where that would be helpfull.

I'm probably not explaining myself clearly.

Sailing on a beam reach with the main out appropriately, you gradually bear away into a broad reach. You should have good momentum and with strong wind in the head sail, you have enough speed to go through the gybe without letting out the main further. As you come off the broad reach you can pull in the main ready for the gybe. With the main not fully out, you have less sheet to get back in in a hurry if the gybe is miss- timed.

As a relative beginner, I was looking for holes in my reasoning.

 

[Angele]

I also don't understand the talk of the need to keep way on the boat - the genoa will be drawing now the main is centred.

The OP made no mention of the genoa, so I did think it possible it might just be him and instructor under main only.

Edit: oops, yes he did - in the last sentence. Just reread it.

 

[awol]

Depends on the boat but generally the faster the speed the less weight in the mainsail and the more effective the rudder will be at keeping you on course.

I'm with you and (I hate to say it) Jimi on this - the faster the boat speed the less dramatic the gybe.
The plan of holding the sheet in ain't going to get the speed and on some boats and winds you will never be able to bear away for the gybe.

 

[Seajet]

I'm with you and (I hate to say it) Jimi on this - the faster the boat speed the less dramatic the gybe.
The plan of holding the sheet in ain't going to get the speed and on some boats and winds you will never be able to bear away for the gybe.

Agree completely.

On my 22' boat I'll probably be able to keep the mainsheet slackened off, and grab the whole purchase of 4 lines, pulling it in by hand as she goes through the gybe; this has the huge advantage of not having to pay out the sheet through the blocks ( although it's all ball bearing stuff ) and not having the period where the main is sheeted in, which as others mention could put on a lot of stress and prevent bearing away.

This will probably not be possible or even advisable on larger boats in very strong winds, it's a case of 'do it when possible'.

 

[webcraft]

This will probably not be possible or even advisable on larger boats in very strong winds

It;s a stupid idea on larger boats in any winds, and a sure recipe for injury in strong winds. The forces increase dramatically with the increase in boat size.

- W

 

[johnalison]

It is not only the wind but the sea state that needs to be taken into account. Ideally, I would sail sail goose-winged, haul in the main and gybe under control, but if the course can't be accurately held, it is better to broad reach, gybe properly and deal with the jib later. I'm talking about short-handed sailing.

Uffa Fox describes in one story, which might have been "Typhoon", which involved gybing in a force 7 by swinging the boat around so fast and so far that the boom never had a chance to bring up against the shrouds. I'm not inclined to believe everything he wrote, great chap though.

 

[Seajet]

It;s a stupid idea on larger boats in any winds, and a sure recipe for injury in strong winds. The forces increase dramatically with the increase in boat size.

- W

Webcraft,

that's what I love about you; never let common sense or in this case civility get in the way of your opinions.

Hand grabbing the mainsheet is plainly not 'stupid' on humungous size boats if the wind's light !

I'm sorry you don't seem able to grasp the concept of judgement, and yes combining such a move with manouvering the boat to suit as well if necessary as Uffa Fox mentions.

What would I know, I only did my exam on a Gib Sea 42 in a F9 +

 

[Deleted member 36384]

.
To gybe safely in any wind above a zephyr the main needs to be centred before beginning to put the stern through the wind. A gybe should never be a hasty business, and attempting to do it 'on the run' so to speak and synchronising centring the boom with the stern passing through the wind is likely to result in a mistimed gybe (with possible damage/injury) eventually, even with the most experienced crew.

I once watched, from behind, a perfect Gybe in a 420 dinghy at speed. The dinghy turned fast, remained perfectly level, but the finesse was in the mainsail angle. The boom was effortlessly sheeted in as the dinghy's stern swung through the wind and paid out again. It is one of the most memorable sailing manoeuvres I have witnessed because it was so smooth. I on the other hand drifted the stern, healed, causing much drag and lost about a boat length.

I teach the helmsman to manoeuvre more or less as you discuss but use the top of the leach as the tell tale for the approaching gybe, a slow turn in, the leach flips, take some of the turn off, boom flips, big ease out on the sheet, then pick up the rate of turn to the new course.

 

[webcraft]

Hand grabbing the mainsheet is plainly not 'stupid' on humungous size boats if the wind's light !

Yes it is.

End of.

You might get away with it, but advising others to do it is plain stupid - sorry, but it is. And one day you won't gt away with it. Your belief in your own infallibility will bite you.

What would I know, I only did my exam on a Gib Sea 42 in a F9 +

. . . and I assume you did not 'hand grab the mainsheet' when gybing - as if you did you would most certainly have failed.

- W

 

[Seajet]

Yes it is.

End of.

You might get away with it, but advising others to do it is plain stupid - sorry, but it is. And one day you won't gt away with it. Your belief in your own infallibility will bite you.



. . . and I assume you did not 'hand grab the mainsheet' when gybing - as if you did you would most certainly have failed.

- W

I mentioned that little excursion as you seem to think you're the only person in the world to have sailed a relatively large boat in strong winds.

I don't recall hand grabbing to gybe but it was a while ago now; I do remember the examiner was more experienced than you and me put together will ever be, he thought I was coming in too quickly for the MOB drill - which he made me do singlehanded ( I'd been warned and could have avoided it but it seemed a fair test ) as I only sailed with my then fiancee - and I seemed to get brownie points for doing it quickly if not as slowly by drill as most.

If I had handled the mainsheet and it worked OK, I'm sure he would still have passed me...

I can't be the supersailor you seem to think ( thanks anyway ! ) so you are being unfair on the average sailor, I'd suggest a lot of experience on high performance dinghies is a good grounding, gybing on the plane is something to get right or get wet.

Here's a tip; if you disagree with someone's views, fine, say so - but calling people stupid just reflects on you.

I'll happily stick to my judgement thanks, as will the many people I've instructed over the years; I don't see a trail of wrecked boats and injured people yet, but we'll give it time, eh ?

 

[ProDave]

Okay, I'm reading this thread with interest, as a relatively new sailor on a small boat.

I'm hoping to learn something from the thread, but the conflicting advice is just confusing me.

so I'll try and summarise how I see this gybing lark and perhaps other will comment. I'm hoping to learn from the thread.

Firstly we are talking about gybing. To me that means you are running on a very broad reach with the wind almost behind you and the main fully out, and you need to turn so the wind is on the other side, still on a broad reach.

So firstly, I don't understand what people are saying about sheeting on an a BEAM reach. We are not talking about sailing on a beam reach, so why mention that, it just confuses me?

Anyway I'm sailing downwind on a broad reach and need to gybe. There's no way I'm just going to let the main gybe on it's own without sheeting in. Even in VERY light winds, the boom will spin round very fast indeed. In strong wind it will almost certainly break something.

So what I do (and remember I'm a novice so it may not be right) is I sheet the main in so it's almost tight. Yes you will lose a bit of way because the sail depowers, but you don't hold it there long. Then I make the turn. Then I let the main back out (the other way of course)

That completes the gybe with no drama and no fuss.

Is there more to it that I am missing? Is there something fundamentally unsafe about sheeting the main in then back out again?

I'm genuinely interested in hearing what's right and what's wrong so I can learn.