Contessa 32 doppelganger.

[andsarkit]

Eric from Nordkyn Design on the Contessa 32 and the weakness of that pinched stern in following seas:
Heavy weather dynamics: the behaviour of yachts in following seas | Nordkyn Design
These are his opinions, not mime, I'm just providing the link. Mind you, he is a naval architect, and I am not.

From the link above : "Many Contessa 32s have sailed around in the Tropics, but true bad weather just doesn’t exist there. As far as I am concerned, it is a bad and a dangerous boat. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing of course, but – assuming that a Contessa 32 can point acceptably in high winds and heavy seas, a very open question – had she turned it around and sailed upwind, she might have come out better off because designs like this one just won’t run in heavy seas. "

Perhaps someone should have told Pierre Huglo in Red Herring. Longue Route

My little boat seemed to cope quite well going downwind with the storm jib sheeted hard amidships. Not extreme conditions but quite windy.

 

[Daydream believer]

When the IOR rule started it encouraged wider beam for more interior volume and form stabilty. The beam was carried further aft with wider transoms and bigger cockpits.

There was me thinking that the IOR rule led to pinched end designs.
Designers tried all sorts of tricks to carry the water line aft & the width at WL aft. But it did not avoid the pinched stern. If I recall correctly, this produced things like the "Davidsons crease". This has reappeared in some modern boats. But for a different reason to rule optimising.

Whilst there has been mention of keels falling off one might recall that Westerly had a new boat design launch & the keel fell off whilst on the mooring.

Then of course there were the early Fulmars
One should be advised to be careful of those. A few were recalled for major structural works because the keel structure was incorrectly built. They got the wobbles. I do not think any actually fell off . But needed re building in the keel area. They may be Ok, but I would not be inclined to look at a first edition Fulmar- If indeed any still survive.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Is this the reason the double ender came to be considered a safe lifeboat concept for really heavy seas. The Nordic designs like Colin Archer, Hans Christian, Albin Allegro and others are a significant slice of the boat market in Scandinavia?

 

[BurnitBlue]

From the link above : "Many Contessa 32s have sailed around in the Tropics, but true bad weather just doesn’t exist there. As far as I am concerned, it is a bad and a dangerous boat. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing of course, but – assuming that a Contessa 32 can point acceptably in high winds and heavy seas, a very open question – had she turned it around and sailed upwind, she might have come out better off because designs like this one just won’t run in heavy seas. "

Perhaps someone should have told Pierre Huglo in Red Herring. Longue Route

My little boat seemed to cope quite well going downwind with the storm jib sheeted hard amidships. Not extreme conditions but quite windy.
View attachment 149858

Round the world non-stop in a Contessa 32. No wander they command such high prices. Not just a pretty face. Would love to see the list of stores, food, water and spares he carried on such a short narrow waterline.

 

[Concerto]

There was me thinking that the IOR rule led to pinched end designs.
Designers tried all sorts of tricks to carry the water line aft & the width at WL aft. But it did not avoid the pinched stern. If I recall correctly, this produced things like the "Davidsons crease". This has reappeared in some modern boats. But for a different reason to rule optimising.

Whilst there has been mention of keels falling off one might recall that Westerly had a new boat design launch & the keel fell off whilst on the mooring.

Then of course there were the early Fulmars
One should be advised to be careful of those. A few were recalled for major structural works because the keel structure was incorrectly built. They got the wobbles. I do not think any actually fell off . But needed re building in the keel area. They may be Ok, but I would not be inclined to look at a first edition Fulmar- If indeed any still survive.

This resume from Wikipedia of the early IOR boats is a good description.

"Initially designs were heavy displacement, with a fine, often V shaped stern as well as a fine bow. These were powerful boats for sailing to windward, but had limited performance offwind as well as often having an alarming tendency to broach - designers included Sparkman & Stephens and Dick Carter. Then Ron Holland's quarter-tonner Eygthene began the next phase of increasingly lightweight boats with fuller sterns giving more of a wedge shape, and a change from masthead rig to a fractional rig. This dinghy influence gave much faster performance reaching and downwind, and although windward performance was not as good, it improved as the designs developed. " International Offshore Rule - Wikipedia

I do not dispute that Westerly had some problems with keels, usually twin keels, not fins. At this time this was still part of the increase knowledge of using glassfibre as a boat building material. Since this period, there have been improvements in the glassfibre mats and the resins used, plus better controls on the production process. All boat builders have periods when changes in design and production cause some problems. I doubt there is any builder that has not had a problem at some time that needs changes in either the design or increased structural strength.

As a Fulmar owner with fin hull number 7, makes mine a very early one. When I purchased it, the surveyor stated the aft end of the keel rib should be strengthened and told me how to do this. To give you an idea how bad it was, the aft end of the keel pushed the hull up by about 10mm when in the cradle. He did not think it was urgent to do as it had already been satisfactory for 33 years. It is on my list of jobs to be done this year at 42 years old.

 

[Daydream believer]

This resume from Wikipedia of the early IOR boats is a good description.

"Initially designs were heavy displacement, with a fine, often V shaped stern as well as a fine bow. These were powerful boats for sailing to windward, but had limited performance offwind as well as often having an alarming tendency to broach - designers included Sparkman & Stephens and Dick Carter. Then Ron Holland's quarter-tonner Eygthene began the next phase of increasingly lightweight boats with fuller sterns giving more of a wedge shape, and a change from masthead rig to a fractional rig. This dinghy influence gave much faster performance reaching and downwind, and although windward performance was not as good, it improved as the designs developed. " International Offshore Rule - Wikipedia

With due respect, I think that one should consider what happened after that, You have convenietly stopped a bit early in development of the rule.
The boats started out with pinched ends with bustles etc. Designers then increased the width across the waterline at the stern, as stated above, but had to watch the rule part about the aft girth, which penalised them. Regardless of this designers went for lightweight & dinghy like to get them planing- ( the David Thomas Hydro, I think, could have been an example of this. Although I do not know if it was designed to fit the IOR).

The rule makers decided this was bad- I think that a couple of boats boats in the fastnet 79, that relied on form for stability, actually flipped & did not immediately self right. So they altered the rule & sterns got narrower again. Stability requirements were re configured & the wider sterns, along with a tendancy for the deep bulb keel, went out of fasion for a while- in respect of that rule. So they went narrow again, but not so "pinched".

 

[Concerto]

With due respect, I think that one should consider what happened after that, You have convenietly stopped a bit early in development of the rule.
The boats started out with pinched ends with bustles etc. Designers then increased the width across the waterline at the stern, as stated above, but had to watch the rule part about the aft girth, which penalised them. Regardless of this designers went for lightweight & dinghy like to get them planing- ( the David Thomas Hydro, I think, could have been an example of this. Although I do not know if it was designed to fit the IOR).

The rule makers decided this was bad- I think that a couple of boats boats in the fastnet 79, that relied on form for stability, actually flipped & did not immediately self right. So they altered the rule & sterns got narrower again. Stability requirements were re configured & the wider sterns, along with a tendancy for the deep bulb keel, went out of fasion for a while- in respect of that rule. So they went narrow again, but not so "pinched".

We were discussing the early IOR designs, not the later years. If you had the full paragraph you would have seen this comment.

"The ultimate in this stage was the various lightweight centerboard designs with internal ballast, but these were not sufficiently seaworthy for offshore racing and so were penalised so heavily that they were effectively banned. Designs then moved to a more moderate displacement, and as race courses moved from offshore racing with plenty of reaching towards windward/leeward round the cans, racing designs became narrower and less powerful but more easily driven. "

Earlier in the same article, this was an interesting comment.

"The IOR was run by the ITC, or International Technical Committee, of the Offshore Racing Congress, chaired between 1979 and 1987 by the late Gary Mull of San Francisco.[3] As with all published handicapping formulae, there was an ongoing game between the designers finding ways of designing boats that took advantage of shortcomings in the measurement system and handicapping formulae, and the rule makers closing the loopholes to ensure fair racing and a reasonable competitive life for the boats. As the racing became more competitive, the rate of change in the rule accelerated, and also the boats at the top of the fleet became stripped out racing machines that performed well but were expensive and also difficult to sail, and this resulted in a loss of popularity."

 

[Daydream believer]

So I was right.( we both are to an extent) The boats went back towards the narrow sterns synonymous with the IOR of earlier years- but accepted not so radical & the wide stern was a passing fad.( as far as IOR was concerned)
Nothing to debate further, me thinks

 

[doug748]

Eric from Nordkyn Design on the Contessa 32 and the weakness of that pinched stern in following seas:
Heavy weather dynamics: the behaviour of yachts in following seas | Nordkyn Design
These are his opinions, not mime, I'm just providing the link. Mind you, he is a naval architect, and I am not.

He does not claim any qualifications in the marine field, says he has a higher degree in computing. He seems to have published nothing, it's just a blog. Of course that does not mean he is wrong but credibility is a different thing.

The Contessa has a relatively narrow, traditional stern, the term pinched stern more often refers to the radical aft distortions of some IOR boats




On a wider note it's one of the problems of the Interweb that all sorts of blogs and baseless ideas can be posted and then re-posted to take on a believable veneer. The power of the printed word.

.

 

[eebygum]

I sometimes hear remarks when describing certain yachts that they are doppelgangers of the Contessa 32 at a third of the price. The recent thread about the Pioneir 9 is an example. Swedes boast that their Albin Ballad is also a poor mans Contessa 32.

I am an admirer of the Contessa 32 and I hope to buy one soon but the price for a 35 year old example is beyond my acceptance . There is one for sale right now for nearly £50,000, another for £9,000 which must be a record spread for one design. I would not dare put a toe in those waters because it would need a well informed expert to know where a particular boat lies in that wide price range.

However, I am really tempted by the few genuine examples that have a realistic asking price. But what condition? Therefore I am looking for a poor-mans Contessa 32 in marginal condition. If they really exist. I know that ownership of the genuine article is part of the mystique. A copy can, and probably will not satisfy me so I may be forced to take a chance on a project boat.. I would be interested in your thoughts on this. Realistic price for instance. Can a person be satisfied with a doppelganger?
Thanks.

I will throw my hat and boat into the ring as a worthy contender to the Contessa 32 and a better boat to the SHE 31…. My 1973 S&S designed SH32C

Following is an excerpt from a 1996 Sailing review
“The C32 (C for Cruising) was introduced in 1973, by which time pure IOR racers were already beginning to display unsightly bumps and distortions encouraged by the rule. There was little of this nonsense about the C32, except for rather hollow sections aft which gave her stern a slightly pinched look; her lines were well balanced, long and slim, fine in the ends and with generous over-hangs, emphasised by a clipper bow.

Looking at her from astern, the generous tumblehome in her midsections is immediately apparent. The (encapsulated) keel is an external lead fin, slightly swept back, and the rudder hangs on a skeg.

She was intended from the start to be a high-performance cruiser, but inevitably, given her pedigree, she found favour with both club and long-distance racers.”

Vivendi sails very well downwind. Last spring I did Anglesey to Fastnet, singlehanded 270 nm in 51 hours (largely under reefed main). The cockpit layout is very efficient for singlehanded sailing and the interior an excellent cruiser for 2&3, but cramped for 4.

The only drawback for you, is very few of them come up for sale.

 

[Tranona]

Looking at her from astern, the generous tumblehome in her midsections is immediately apparent. The (encapsulated) keel is an external lead fin, slightly swept back, and the rudder hangs on a skeg.

Bit of a contradiction there - is the ballast encapsulated or not? The OP has set his heart on an encapsulated keel.

 

[KevinV]

Bit of a contradiction there - is the ballast encapsulated or not? The OP has set his heart on an encapsulated keel.

The 36's is bolted on, then glassed in IIRC

 

[eebygum]

Bit of a contradiction there - is the ballast encapsulated or not? The OP has set his heart on an encapsulated keel.

Hi, Thats a mistake on my part, the keel is “cast lead by Peter Mould with correctly staggered deep galleries to take keel bolts of which there are 8”… apologies I guess that rules the SHE 32C out

 

[penfold]

The 36's is bolted on, then glassed in IIRC

The worst of both worlds.

 

[KevinV]

The worst of both worlds.

That'll be why everyone hates them then?

 

[Tranona]

Hi, Thats a mistake on my part, the keel is “cast lead by Peter Mould with correctly staggered deep galleries to take keel bolts of which there are 8”… apologies I guess that rules the SHE 32C out

It was partly tongue in cheek as doubt the OP is seriously going to buy a boat of this type. The keel and ballast arrangement was pretty standard S&S stuff at the time and nothing wrong with it, although suspect they rather regretted subsequently covering a bolted on lead keel in GRP on other designs. They were playing around a lot with keel designs at the time and experiments with such horrors as stainless fairing extensions on the back of lead keels to get a fine clean edge not possible with just lead. Subsequent owners had to deal with the problems of galvanic action!

 

[JRCO26]

He does not claim any qualifications in the marine field, says he has a higher degree in computing. He seems to have published nothing, it's just a blog. Of course that does not mean he is wrong but credibility is a different thing.

On a wider note it's one of the problems of the Interweb that all sorts of blogs and baseless ideas can be posted and then re-posted to take on a believable veneer. The power of the printed word.

.

You make some very good points Sir. My bad for 'assuming' he was a naval architect - thank you for putting me right.

I think in the extreme conditions he talks about, a boat of any design is going to be up against it. I note the Contessa32 was sailed non-stop round the world recently by a Frenchman, so that says something. I also note he is not a believer in drogues....yet I have read accounts of many sailors who swear it was the Jordan Series Drogue in particular, that saved them and their boat.

Still, I think it important to read all points of view and then, as the old saying goes, "you pays your money and makes your choice".

Thanks again for correcting me about his non naval architect status.

 

[doug748]

You make some very good points Sir. My bad for 'assuming' he was a naval architect - thank you for putting me right.

I think in the extreme conditions he talks about, a boat of any design is going to be up against it. I note the Contessa32 was sailed non-stop round the world recently by a Frenchman, so that says something. I also note he is not a believer in drogues....yet I have read accounts of many sailors who swear it was the Jordan Series Drogue in particular, that saved them and their boat.

Still, I think it important to read all points of view and then, as the old saying goes, "you pays your money and makes your choice".

Thanks again for correcting me about his non naval architect status.

Yes, indeed.

BTW, my second point was not a jibe but a comment on how easy it is , on the internet, to pick things up which look credible but after a close look prove to be far from it.
On running, the Nordkyn blog says (of the Jo Hunter dismasting in the Southern Ocean though he does not actually name her) :

"................. assuming that a Contessa 32 can point acceptably in high winds and heavy seas, a very open question – had she turned it around and sailed upwind, she might have come out better off"

Any serious writer would know that Assent in the 1979 Fastnet, survived by actually continuing to race upwind through the worst of it. Indeed the blogger claims to have done the same in his Dufour Arpage, hardly a wide stern design.
Willy Kerr whose heavy weather sailing experience is second to few, both at high and low latitudes, writes:

"Nowadays, if it comes to blow, I put 3 reefs in the main, set the Aries to sail, say, 60deg off the wind and go to bed"

.

 

[BurnitBlue]

I paused my participation in this thread because my old passport sent to HM Passport office hsd got lost. I posted earlier that I was not worried because it was registered "sign-for" delivery. But it was frustrating reading about boats fo sale when I was trapped in Sweden so I paused.

Now I am worried because it is still missing. I get repeated automated emails from the Passport office reminding me to send them my old passport. So I googled around to see if there was a reason like strikes or war. Well it appears that The Royal Mail department that deals with overseas registered mail and parcels in and out of the UK was hit by a Ransomware demand. They do not admit this instead referring to an "INCIDENT" around new year. So I continue to wait.

I post this complaint (explanation) in the hope that immediately after I hit the send button the passport will turn up. Something like this does happen just after I throw something away.

Edit what actually happened wS my PC just powered off

 

[Zagato]

Also had messages asking me to post my passport when I had already done it. They got it eventually. Just sent my daughters off as the price goes up by £40 apparently.

Anyway back to your dream boat. It's obvious, a Biscay 36, big brother surely to your gorgeous IF Boat, some even have the same windows. ?? They say the IF Boat is the most attractive small GRP yacht... don,t you know ?