Contessa 32 doppelganger.

[Tranona]

Your comments about wood boats do in fact indicate that the bolts themselves are not the problem. In wood boats I believe the bolts were through bolted with a nut under the keel. Wood, which is compressable and malliable to a degree will allow through bolts but GRP would simply crush. Therefore studded bolts threaded into the keel is the solution. Thinking about that for a minute and I wonder what the ultimate difference is, the keel is just one big nut. So why the difference between wood bolted keels staying on while 90 examples of Grp bolted keels fell off?

I have not seen the full account of the 90 keels that "fell off", but have difficulty in believing that term as the ISAF data I have seen shows the vast majority are knocked off through grounding or came off poorly designed or constructed race boats. Although I have never seen any data I expect there were many examples of similar keel detachments from wooden boats. As I suggested earlier, it is not bolts that are the problem - it is either the contact with something hard or the supporting structure (or, of course both).

 

[BurnitBlue]

Not only the She 31 but all the other boats of that size that Sparkman and Stephens designed to the RORC / CCA rule throughout the 1960s. By that time S&S were on their 2000th design many of which had had their lines plans published as was the norm at that time. David Sadler when doing any of his very limited number of designs didn't deviate very far (being generous) from what were considered, and proven to be , the best race winning designs of the time.

In the eighties we sailed our S&S design of a similar size into New York and went to visit S&S in Madison Avenue. Although semi retired, Olin Stephens was there and talked to us at length about all sorts. He asked us why we had chosen our boat and we said we actually had wanted a Contessa 32 having been influenced by the Fastnet report and the exploits of Gigi, but they were all too expensive and the S&S one we found we thought was very 'similar'. He replied that there was in fact a major difference in that we had an original and not a replica.

Well well. That has put the cat among the pigeons. I don't know what to say. My future search and purchase has been turned upside down. The Contessa 32 is itself a doppelganger. Thanks for that great post.

 

[dunedin]

Your comments about wood boats do in fact indicate that the bolts themselves are not the problem. In wood boats I believe the bolts were through bolted with a nut under the keel. Wood, which is compressable and malliable to a degree will allow through bolts but GRP would simply crush. Therefore studded bolts threaded into the keel is the solution. Thinking about that for a minute and I wonder what the ultimate difference is, the keel is just one big nut. So why the difference between wood bolted keels staying on while 90 examples of Grp bolted keels fell off?

Again, HAVE YOU STUDIED THE REPORT OF THE “90 keel failures”.
Kraken Yachts have a specific Agenda of selling their boats. And you referred to a list partially originating from World Sailing - whose roles include oversight of top flight racing (Olympics plus yacht racing).
I haven’t studied the latest list - but did review a previous version. Most were extreme racing boats, often with swing keels on hydraulic rams. Others had been modified without proper design or engineering oversight. Some had fallen off after being driven ashore and breaking up. All rather irrelevant to most production cruising yachts. Where there seems to be perhaps less than 10 proven cases amongst millions of builds. Many more will have been lost to fire and other risks.

You need to be very careful lifting some headlines and making extrapolations without studying the detail.
I am pretty sure that if somebody did the statistics on sailing boat losses / abandonments in the southern ocean over the past 10 years they could probably “prove” statistically that a higher proportion of long keel boats have been lost than proportion of swing keel racers. This is largely due to the GGR boats, which have had a lot of losses proportionately, whereas more extreme Vendee Globe has had fewer losses. Perhaps even could “prove” that Rustler 36 is the “most dangerous” boat as had proportionately the most losses. But of course there are a lot of other factors involved - size, professional crews etc.

Two things that are becoming an “arguable hypothesis” are that:
- going too slowly can put boats at higher risk in the Southern Ocean (due to spending more time in the path of major storms, as well as keeping moving fast reduced the impact of waves and wind from astern) - becoming reasonably accepted by many, including GGR skippers who now ry to keep sailing in storms
- the large surface area of a long keel may cause them to be more likely to be rolled over in a breaking sea, when a boat with less keel area may survive by slipping sideways - this one is more controversial, but looking increasingly plausible (and certainly seems to apply to multihulls, where dagger boards down seem to increase risk of flipping)
And of course all entirely irrelevant to somebody looking for a boat to pootle around Greece and the Med

 

[BurnitBlue]

I hadn’t realised that you seem to have owned the Moody 346 for a decade or more, and seemed to have concerns about steering stability 8 years ago - although that seemed to be related to expecting the boat to sail in a straight line when letting go of the wheel (which few would expect a boat to do without engaging the autopilot or wheel lock) - Anyone sailed a Moody 34 or 346?

Is there space for a below deck autopilot - which is generally MASSIVELY better than the elastic band wheel pilots?

The Moody 346 is a Bill Dixon designed boat, and he is a very well respected and experienced designer. I still can’t quite see why anybody would be concerned about sailing anywhere in the Med in such a boat (assuming properly maintained and prepared). Or indeed sailing back to UK or Scandinavia. Lots of Dixon’s designs have sailed round the world. Wouldn’t be surprised if a few Moody 346s have.

The reason I asked the question was an effort to understand my failure to actually go anywhere in the boat despite her pedigree. Especially to windward. At the back of my mind was the unthinkable that I had lost my bottle and become a coward. I decided to find out. I cannot change me but I could change the boat. Not a nice thing to admit but there it is. I have not noticed any other change in my personality or ambition except age has made me timid. Maybe.

 

[Zagato]

I am aware of steel punchings. A good friend of mine circumnavigated in an American boat which had steel punching embedded in cement. Seems to be common in USA. I know for a fact that my IF has a solid iron keel. It is part of the racing classification. Any departure from the specs means no sail number. I know that because I asked permission for a quite minor modification to the interior to make it more comfortable for cruising. Fine they said. Do what you like, it's your boat but you will lose the sail number.

Anyway I had a massive and pleasant surprise last night, I discovered that a Contessa doppelganger was built in Sweden called the IW31. The exact design by VdS also called the SHE31. 350 were built in Sweden and I have seen them on the Blocket for sale list. None at the moment though. This will solve the EU import hassle if I can find one here. I googled IW31 and mention was made about the She31 and the Contessa 32 in various places. Oh happy days.

Yes I was greatly relieved to hear my IF Boat had a cast iron ballast lump... and that they are routinely hauled in and out with the crane hook attaching to a big hook from that ballast. I didn,t have the courage to do that and recovered her with straps as is the norm over hear. A very strongly built boat as mentioned in many reviews.

Jeremy Rogers was doing up a clients Contessa. The client wanted to put stronger shrouds on. Rogers said you could but the deck fittings wouldn,t take the extra load so stick with the original spec shrouds. Nothing wrong with that BUT they were built to a certain tolerance!! What about a Marieholm 32, it's a belt and braces job once again. Doug 748 is pretty clued up on these type of boats. Happy shopping. Blue Roo the Cont 32 in our yard was always the most impressive thing to look at. The owner sold it for another Cont 32 in better condition and spec. Cheaper than spending on his own I suspect.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Because of the YBW search engine, this chat about keels should be in it's own titled thread. OK it started to drift with relevance but it has drifted too far IMO. Not a complaint yet anyone later searching for all this good stuff about keels will never find it buried in this thread. Not complaining, just saying.

 

[awol]

The Contessa 32 has lead which is fixed by pouring resin over it in situ, being fairly inert they did not bother overmuch about this back in the day. Looking into the bilge what you actually see is a sub floor above the ballast. As this floor is open at the aft end festering water tended to collect under it a causing boat stinks.
The solution is to drill a hole somewhere towards the bottom of the ballast, drain out the manky water and then fill the void with slow set resin, capping off the access hole.

A minor correction - I believe the hole is drilled just above the lead and later boats do not have this problem.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Yes I was greatly relieved to hear my IF Boat had a cast iron ballast lump... and that they are routinely hauled in and out with the crane hook attaching to a big hook from that ballast. I didn,t have the courage to do that and recovered her with straps as is the norm over hear. A very strongly built boat as mentioned in many reviews.

Jeremy Rogers was doing up a clients Contessa. The client wanted to put stronger shrouds on. Rogers said you could but the deck fittings wouldn,t take the extra load so stick with the original spec shrouds. Nothing wrong with that BUT they were built to a certain tolerance!! What about a Marieholm 32, it's a belt and braces job once again. Doug 748 is pretty clued up on these type of boats. Happy shopping. Blue Roo the Cont 32 in our yard was always the most impressive thing to look at. The owner sold it for another Cont 32 in better condition and spec. Cheaper than spending on his own I suspect.

I once bought a small farm by accident. I moved my IF there by truck for something to do in the winter. My plan was to move the drop down galley to the mast bulkhead. I asked around for a source of grp resin and mat and was directed to a large shed about a mile away. On the doorstep by Swedish standards.

I drove over there and went into the shed. I was shocked and amazed. The shed was full of IF boats some half finished. Just like in a fairy tale the shed seemed to light up with twinkling lights and music from angels. I was unwittingly in the Mariaholm Boat Works. I don't remember much of the visit because I was so enthralled. When the foreman realised I wanted the resin for my IF boat he gave me big tins of resin and some plywood and trim for a few beers. When I got back to the "farm" I got out of the car and looked at my IFboat propped up next to a big old oak tree. I swear to god, the boat seemed to glow with pure pride. I have now owned that boat for twenty years and she sits in my garden never to be sold by me. People (and family) may be fed up with my constant reference to her. So what?

 

[mattonthesea]

The reason I asked the question was an effort to understand my failure to actually go anywhere in the boat despite her pedigree. Especially to windward. At the back of my mind was the unthinkable that I had lost my bottle and become a coward. I decided to find out. I cannot change me but I could change the boat. Not a nice thing to admit but there it is. I have not noticed any other change in my personality or ambition except age has made me timid. Maybe.

Recently I sometimes have had to remind myself what I've done before; because occasionally I got nervous about simple things like leaving a pontoon! I think that last year it was exacerbated by Putin's war and the pandemic. They may only be in the background but the psyche is a strange thing.

Hope that helps

 

[geem]

I think most bolt on keel issues get noticed a long time before the keel falling off becomes an issue. Poor design, poor installation, hard grounding all play there part but very few fail catastrophically. I know of a brand new Elan with a leaking keel after completing an Atlantic crossing. It didn't hit anything, it just leaked. It was a warranty claim against Elan. Pretty horrible to be bailing your new boat halfway across the pond wondering if your keel was going to drop off though.

 

[BurnitBlue]

I think most bolt on keel issues get noticed a long time before the keel falling off becomes an issue. Poor design, poor installation, hard grounding all play there part but very few fail catastrophically. I know of a brand new Elan with a leaking keel after completing an Atlantic crossing. It didn't hit anything, it just leaked. It was a warranty claim against Elan. Pretty horrible to be bailing your new boat halfway across the pond wondering if your keel was going to drop off though.

Yes, the stress and worry about events like the keel falling off boats that have similar construct to the one you are currently sailing is not pleasant. As Confusious says "the tiger leaps once". There is no rewind button to have another go.

 

[dunedin]

Yes, the stress and worry about events like the keel falling off boats that have similar construct to the one you are currently sailing is not pleasant. As Confusious says "the tiger leaps once". There is no rewind button to have another go.

What planet are you on with this “keel worries”. Millions of production cruising boats built and perhaps less than 10:recorded issues. If really worried buy an Arcona, X Yacht, Salona or similar which have a huge metal subframe combining keel, mast and rigging attachments. Stronger than any encapsulated keel.
But most just get boat surveyed when buy, and after groundings, and don’t worry about an extremely rare and generally hypothetical risk. Huge number of bigger risks - more likely to die of heart attack on board, drown coming back from the pub in the dinghy, or abandon due to fire, than a production cruiser losing a keel.

 

[awol]

What planet are you on with this “keel worries”. Millions of production cruising boats built and perhaps less than 10:recorded issues. If really worried buy an Arcona, X Yacht, Salona or similar which have a huge metal subframe combining keel, mast and rigging attachments. Stronger than any encapsulated keel.
But most just get boat surveyed when buy, and after groundings, and don’t worry about an extremely rare and generally hypothetical risk. Huge number of bigger risks - more likely to die of heart attack on board, drown coming back from the pub in the dinghy, or abandon due to fire, than a production cruiser losing a keel.

You not finished your popcorn yet, Alan?

 

[dunedin]

You not finished your popcorn yet, Alan?

Have you heard the one about the three Contessa 32’s that lost their keels and capsized ?

<No I haven’t either, but by the time this circulates on the interweb a few times it will becomes as well established a “truth” as the rest of the myths on keel failures Getting refill for popcorn >

 

[doug748]

Well well. That has put the cat among the pigeons. I don't know what to say. My future search and purchase has been turned upside down. The Contessa 32 is itself a doppelganger. Thanks for that great post.

Shocked and amazed. Though the She 31is:

Short waterline
Smaller all round
3/4 of a ton lighter
1.5 ft shorter
Ballasted with a bolted on keel
9 inches less in the beam
Lacking a prop aperture in the skeg

And carries a more canoe like body, plus a different and very much shorter keel. Apart from that like two peas in a pod. ; -)


PS,

Almost forgot, Fiona Rogers in the article mentioned earlier did say that they studied two yachts quite carefully when designing the Contessa. I have forgotten which they were but one surprised me as it was a quite different type, the other may have been a She. Can't recall. They would be mugs not to look at the marketplace but I guess designers would be checking esoteric things like immersed volumes and weight distributions rather than stealing line drawings.

.

 

[Tranona]

- the large surface area of a long keel may cause them to be more likely to be rolled over in a breaking sea, when a boat with less keel area may survive by slipping sideways -

I was waiting for this to come up. What goes round comes round!. This was a hot topic in design circles in the late 30s and through to the 60s. Maurice Griffiths was an advocate of the wider beam, shallower draft, harder bilge hull form, initially reflecting his East Coast origins (think bawleys and smacks from that part of the world), but following a trip to the NE USA just before the war he realised the possibilities of that hull form for ocean sailing. Well written up in his book Little Ships and Shoal Waters. Many of his post war designs developed this theme, arguing that such hulls "rode" the waves rather than being tripped over by them. By observation it does seem that deep long keeled narrow boats are more prone to rolling in extreme conditions - even if they may come up more easily.

Certainly seemed to have influenced many people buying a smallish boat for ocean sailing in the 60s and 70s as the boxy hard chine Golden Hind was very successful for a brief period. I have read many of the accounts of their voyages from people who bought in that period and the ability to ride out heavy weather comfortably is a common theme. There are downsides of course - not a particularly good sailing boat with a small rig and perhaps a foot less beam than MG would have liked if it had been designed from scratch rather than stretched from the earlier 28'6" (which in turn was a stretched and widened Eventide!) and rather lightly ballasted at 35%. There was little development in period and when other builders introduced newer style boats sales collapsed, not helped by the (temporary) rise in the value of the £ which affected sales to the US.

The later Barbican 33 carried on the tradition but with a round bilge hull rather than chined. Similar dimensions but 9'7" rather than 9' beam , greater displacement and higher ballast which allowed a bigger rig. Still not a great sailer but had some success in the "bluewater" market and still, like the GH a good budget buy for would be ocean gypsies. The ultimate GH came about at the end of the 90s when the then owner of the design made some changes to comply with the RCD Cat A, mainly a small increase in draft and greater ballast to get the AVS up above the minimum. This in turn allowed a bigger rig - the mast is no less than 2m higher than the original! This is his final boat



I was sorely tempted to buy it when he sold it a couple of years ago, but in reality it is all a bit to fancy and complicated (compared to the original i have) for the sort of sailing I do. Would make a nice ocean cruiser though for a couple.

 

[steveeasy]

Well im sure it will come as no surprise to most of you, but you lot lost me an awful long time ago. Too much thinking going on here. Still again i am taken aback by the breadth of knowledge among many of you. What makes the forum such a great place. Could we just carry on now saying how great Contessa 32s are please. Now im thinking ive got to find some random hole in the bilge. any tips appreciated.

Steveeasy

 

[awol]

Well im sure it will come as no surprise to most of you, but you lot lost me an awful long time ago. Too much thinking going on here. Still again i am taken aback by the breadth of knowledge among many of you. What makes the forum such a great place. Could we just carry on now saying how great Contessa 32s are please. Now im thinking ive got to find some random hole in the bilge. any tips appreciated.

Steveeasy

Lift the floor hatch at the galley, kneel down and breath in. If it stinks you have the problem; if it is a slightly stale diesely niff go and do something useful.

 

[JRCO26]

Eric from Nordkyn Design on the Contessa 32 and the weakness of that pinched stern in following seas:
Heavy weather dynamics: the behaviour of yachts in following seas | Nordkyn Design
These are his opinions, not mime, I'm just providing the link. Mind you, he is a naval architect, and I am not.

 

[Concerto]

Eric from Nordkyn Design on the Contessa 32 and the weakness of that pinched stern in following seas:
Heavy weather dynamics: the behaviour of yachts in following seas | Nordkyn Design
These are his opinions, not mime, I'm just providing the link. Mind you, he is a naval architect, and I am not.

What an interesting article. I liked the published question and his reply specifically about the Contessa 32.

"I once met an English sailor who had sailed a Contessa 32 from South Africa to Western Australia in the late 1990s. She got into high winds and heavy following seas about half way and described to me that the boat was out of control with the foredeck completely underwater and the rudder unresponsive. What followed before long was rather violent because a wave lifted the stern even higher and the boat pitchpoled. Not only the rig was wiped out, but the hull suffered significant structural damage, including a fractured bulkhead. She eventually reached Perth under jury rig. "

I should also say that in extremes of conditions like that I am not sure if my Fulmar would have faired much better. She certainly has more freeboard and hull volume forward and a wider transom than a Contessa 32. Realistically none of our boats are designed for conditions like the Southern Ocean and I never expect to experience them. The nearest I have was earlier this year when entering the Hoy Sound in a westerly force 8 over a strong out going tide, known as one of the roughest places in the UK. There were two wave trains coming from astern, one 45 degrees off the starboard quarter and one dead astern. I was almost dead running under just a double reefed headsail. When the wave trains met and broke, they were 4 to 5 metres peak to trough. When close either side of the transom, they turned the boat by 60 degrees despite using full rudder. One broke on the transom and came within a foot of pooping me. Luckily the full transom had sufficient buoyancy to stop flooding the cockpit, which would have been a major problem. You might find this forum post and video worth checking out.

Round Britain day 43