Contemplating upsizing to 26ft shoal draft

[FairweatherDave]

Trust me I have not settled on any boat and certainly have not resolved the bilge v. lifting keel debate. I did not go into the Anderson debate because of the limited supply of 26's. I do need to be able to dry out eg at Bembridge or East Head and have read your previous posts Seajet on the potential pitfalls of splaying stresses on the bilge keels. So still up for suggestions on stiff shoal draft boats with good accomm and performance around the 26ft mark
cheers
Dave

 

[RobF]

As others have said, the Centaur would be an obvious choice. They have good accommodation for their size, plenty to choose from and you would get a good one in your price bracket. The Dehler 25 might also be worth a look.

 

[KristiferColumbus]

Ooh, good point, I remember seeing pictures a while ago. A clever idea.

I too would be wary of using them unattended, but having dried out on sand in Bembridge and Langstone for pleasure purposes, and on hard mud/gravel near Netley for underwater maintenance, I think being able to park on the beach on an occasional basis is a very useful trick. I would probably make sure the boat was firmly aground before lowering the legs, rather than running onto the beach with them already down, to minimise landing stresses.

I also take the point about pounding, and certainly wouldn't want to be on the bottom in more than ripples, but under control on a sloping bottom big ripples can be dealt with by continuing to power forwards up the beach. Each time you lift you come forwards a bit, with less water and less scope for being lifted by the next wave. Very soon you're hard aground and not lifting at all. Similar in reverse by keeping tension on the stern anchor.

Pete

What I always do to minimize pounding is to drive up the beach (not at fifty miles an hour but still with way on) on a falling tide.That way you have very little time to wait until secure & you minimize the threat from passing motor boats who can be a real menace.
I like the look of that Anderson & am considering a replacement to my bilge keel boat but if you have got something like that scrubbing off & re anti-fouling must be a real hassle.The obvious choice would be something with shortish bilge keels & a good plate that comes down between the two but I have never heard of anything like that.(that Anderson by the way I think could be improved with a good outboard on the back) but that is another argument I guess
An Elizabethan 23 would be another suggestion but they seem a bit cramped inside.

 

[Seajet]

Kristifer,

most A22 owners keep the boat on high trestles for the winter; allows keel plate maintenance & gets boat out of casual yob reach; one could do the same wth a 26 but would need very strong trestles ( nb a yard cradle is no good to a lift keeler ).

By 'better with an o/b' do you mean the A22 or 26 ?

The 22 has a well ( and incidentally is both faster and roomier than an Elizabethan 23 ) while the 26 was offered with a well, I don't know of any which have this, think they all went for inboards; not heard of any prop problems.

I'm aware of driving the boat on when drying on sand, I just prefer not to; some A22's have traditional style beaching legs for this, but - possibly as no kids - never really got into beaching...

 

[Nudge]

Agree with the comments on the Super Seal 26, very fine boat, difficult to catch if you are racing against them... Would probably suit your move up from the current boat too in terms of fun and responsiveness. Delta would also satisfy that area

Consider the Everitt Evolution 26 for all of the above reasons.

Nudge

 

[CreakyDecks]

I like the look of that Anderson & am considering a replacement to my bilge keel boat but if you have got something like that scrubbing off & re anti-fouling must be a real hassle.

I am not sure I understand that. One of the major benefits of a drop keel boat is being able to easily drag her out of the water onto the road trailer. Once on the trailer the access for those jobs is excellent. The only bit of the hull I can't get to on my boat is the area within a few inches of the keel that sits on the trailer bed and that is frequently rubbing on the ground when she's on her mooring, so its clean anyway.

 

[FairweatherDave]

Thanks for the recommendations. I think Rob's post highlights my issue. I googled the Dehler 25 and got a thread from here that was quite off-putting in terms of the effort involved in drying out and lifting the keel, plus it sounded a bit too sporty for my wife. I am guessing a hell of a contrast to the Centaur in performance. So I need something between the two. In the meantime I am gutted to be in this situation as the Sun 2000 is so good for most of our sailing in Chichester........ had a ball yesterday with the gennaker on my own in a force 4 off Hayling (read I'm a bit of a novice so this was a geat experience of the "dark side"!) Happy days. Meantimes the thread drift on drying out is useful to me too. cheers
Dave
PS Antifouling the Sun 2000 on the trailer is easy enough, the trailer supported bits make access a little tricky but a bilge keeler must be a doddle not crawling under the road trailer.

 

[Seajet]

Dave,

as mentioned the only snag painting wise with lift keelers is the boat should be kept high enough to allow access to the keel plate; this applies to all classes.

I and a lot of others have our A22's hoisted onto high trestles for the winter; another way is, as a chum has done, to adapt a tailer so the hull is supported and keel allowed to drop.

Around 26' is about the max for this sort of thing on an amateur basis I'd think, then it's pretty much the max size most builders fancy making lift keelers, the engineering starts getting serious and expensive.

As it is the A26 uses a totally different approach to the 22; on the 22 it's just a shaped plate with 900lb shaped ballast bulb on the end, raised by manual winch.

On the 26 she has a long shallow ballast stub, with a plate - no ballast bulb - going through it, electrically raised; the Seal 28 used the same approach ( manual winch ) and I think Southerlies do as well though they don't really count !

My Dad had a late, 'good' Centaur; while it ticked the boxes, and performance isn't actually bad if one knows what one's doing, it had ZERO feel on the helm, totally unrewarding; we tried all sorts of aircraft tricks to modify the rudder, but still zero feedback.

The Super Seal is the other extreme, good boat but maybe a handful for SWMBO.

Evolutions - some reading up on them and the E-Boat might reveal a lot.

 

[northwind]

The Super Seal is the other extreme, good boat but maybe a handful for SWMBO.

Have you ever sailed a super seal?

Being a handful must be misconception No1 of seals.

They are anything but a handful... They have a very wide flat bottom, so form stability is very good, this coupled with bilges full of iron so there is a lot of weight low down.

To get the best out of a seal you don't want to heel more than 15 or so degrees, my swmbo is definitely not a sailor, and finds the boat provides confidence, not a hairy racer.. It was built as a cruiser, not a racer. The OP and I sailed back up the emsworth channel at the weekend, he had two reefs in, I had full rig up, and I wasn't heeled at all.

I may be a bit biased, but for the kind of sailing the OP wants to do, a lifting keel such as a Super Seal, Anderson, Evolution et al would be ideal. The lifting keel means you can sail to windward, something that most bilge keelers struggle with.

 

[RobF]

Ok other ideas (that aren't Andersons ), that are in your price range, should be reasonable to sail (without being sporty) and provide good accommodation, are as follows:-
Hunter Horizon 23
Hunter Horizon 26
Cobra 750
Etap 26 (might be a bit out of price range)
Trident 24
Westerly Griffon (Westerley's replacement of the Centaur, designed by Dubois so should have reasonable performance).


Hope that helps you identify what you're looking for and therefore narrow down your choice.

 

[Scillypete]

http://www.boatwizardwebsolutions.c...&type=%28Sail%29&sm=3&cit=true&searchtype=buy
A hunter Horizon 26 £12,000 could be worth a look, reasonable performance for a twin keeler.

 

[KristiferColumbus]

Kristifer,

most A22 owners keep the boat on high trestles for the winter; allows keel plate maintenance & gets boat out of casual yob reach; one could do the same wth a 26 but would need very strong trestles ( nb a yard cradle is no good to a lift keeler ).

By 'better with an o/b' do you mean the A22 or 26 ?

The 22 has a well ( and incidentally is both faster and roomier than an Elizabethan 23 ) while the 26 was offered with a well, I don't know of any which have this, think they all went for inboards; not heard of any prop problems.

I'm aware of driving the boat on when drying on sand, I just prefer not to; some A22's have traditional style beaching legs for this, but - possibly as no kids - never really got into beaching...

I have not had my boat out the water in a yard for about 8 years & that has saved about £10,000 so all that has to be weighed up seajet!
The talk of maintenance has put me off lift keelers & yes I was referring to an outboard on the 26 footer.There are many advantages.

 

[KristiferColumbus]

I am not sure I understand that. One of the major benefits of a drop keel boat is being able to easily drag her out of the water onto the road trailer. Once on the trailer the access for those jobs is excellent. The only bit of the hull I can't get to on my boat is the area within a few inches of the keel that sits on the trailer bed and that is frequently rubbing on the ground when she's on her mooring, so its clean anyway.

Trailer sailors & something you keep on a mooring weighing several tons are two completely different matters.I was referring to the latter.
What I love about my type of boating is being able to drop down there & enjoy a few hours spent on the mooring pottering about & you get quite a few days like we are having at the moment when it is very nice weather,quite surprising!
If I had to arrange a tow & launch & all that stuff (even supposing I had the equipment) it just would'nt happen.

 

[Seajet]

Kristifer,

as far as hauling out for the winter I'm lucky and have a very reasonable club with a hoist; having tried boatyards with a fin keeler I'll not be going that way again soon, I'd always go for a club.

Leaving the boat in the water has its' own problems of course, such as possibly encouraging osmosis, no maintenance to skin fittungs - antifoul is by beaching I presume - insurance, and vulnerability to thieves if the boat is out more or less on her own.

An outboard on the transom is never great on any boat - which is why I'm a great fan of wells, but to propel an A26 would take a serious outboard ( when the prop is in the water ) which would be quite thirsty on fuel, dodgy to work on, vulnerable to thieves and collision damage, lines when rafting etc, and to my mind look god-awful !

Northwind,

I've not sailed on a Super-Seal but have sailed alongside quite a few and know the design; internal ballast is not low enough for my taste, but delighted to hear you and SWMBO get on well with her; I suspect you are quite a proficient sailor...

 

[RobF]

Kristifer,
An outboard on the transom is never great on any boat - which is why I'm a great fan of wells, but to propel an A26 would take a serious outboard ( when the prop is in the water ) which would be quite thirsty on fuel, dodgy to work on, vulnerable to thieves and collision damage, lines when rafting etc, and to my mind look god-awful !

Other opinions are available

This said, even I wouldn't consider a transom mounted outboard on a 26 footer (although the Dehler 25 does have this as an option). Not sure I'd plump for an outboard in the well either - this is inboard diesel territory (IMHO)

 

[chrisedwards]

Other opinions are available

This said, even I wouldn't consider a transom mounted outboard on a 26 footer (although the Dehler 25 does have this as an option). Not sure I'd plump for an outboard in the well either - this is inboard diesel territory (IMHO)

Ken Endean, one of my sailing heroes, has a very well arranged outbard on the transom of London Apprentice - his Sabre 27. I would love to have this - If I could find a 30' boat with a well I would buy it. No costs, wasted time, worry, wasted space etc etc associated with inboards which are such loathsome things. Sterntubes, P brackets, cutless bearings, shaft seals, bruises from inaccessibility, wasted sailing days, anodes.............!

 

[Seajet]

I tend to agree; while nothing will beat the superficial user-friendliness of an inboard, there's a huge amount to be said for being able to take the engine home to work on, an engine change doesn't require surgery to boat or wallet, and possibly best of all, a line or net around the prop' is dealt with in moments via breadknife !

I still don't fancy being pinned by the stern somewhere like Portland no matter how briefly however, and the outboard would be quite fuel thirsty, with much much less electrical output, and the No.1 stopper for some will be the use of petrol.

Must say after trying paying for spares and the hassle with a Volvo saildrive on my other boat, I'd be keen on something like an Anderson 26 with a well, though as mentioned I think they all opted for inboards.

Nothing to stop a brave owner re-establishing a well, the structural layout should be there; there are however no spares available for the A26 ( fair few for the A22 ) as the A26 moulds were lost in one of those fires companies seem to suffer just before they go bust !

That was a firm which had the moulds after Andersons, a great shame.

 

[KristiferColumbus]

Ken Endean, one of my sailing heroes, has a very well arranged outbard on the transom of London Apprentice - his Sabre 27. I would love to have this - If I could find a 30' boat with a well I would buy it. No costs, wasted time, worry, wasted space etc etc associated with inboards which are such loathsome things. Sterntubes, P brackets, cutless bearings, shaft seals, bruises from inaccessibility, wasted sailing days, anodes.............!

Not to mention.They don't stink throughout the boat & leave diesel slopping around in the bilges contaminating everything.You get a lovely sweet smelling boat that somehow retains the romance of sail that has been my experience.
That said I am now contemplating buying a bigger boat that will almost inevitably have a diesel engine fitted & I am having serious qualms.More economical & reliable for longer passages?It ai'nt an easy decision to make.
Incidentally;One of the main arguments people always make against outboards is the notion that the props come out the water.
I can only say that this has been very rare in my experience & is usually short lived.If there are waves it is usually because there is wind & in such circumstances should'nt you be sailing

Seajet;I don't share your concerns about leaving a boat in the water for winter but it does depend where your mooring is I guess.Sea cocks the lot get serviced on barnacle day (or two) which is usually in April/May & insurance is payable in or out the water.Some of the best days are lovely bright days throughout winter.I hope to get some serious heating & carry on sailing Dylan style.

 

[seumask]

Dave
PM sent about a Delta that has come up locally for sale.