confirmed - belgians will fine you for having red diesel in your tank
- Thread starter Burnham Bob
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NormanS
Well-known member
Dear guapa,
feel free to put me on your "Ignore" list.
feel free to put me on your "Ignore" list.
fireball
New member
Robin has already said about powerboats running generators. Our AWB doesn't have a generator, but we do have heating and we do run a fridge plus calorifier for hotwater (that also counts - as does anything that isn't propulsion) - generally we try to heat the water and charge the batteries whilst moving somewhere - but the energy is still being spent achieving those aims ... whether or not 60/40 is a fair split is anyones guess - HMRC have decided it's a reasonable standard for a split so that's what I'll continue to claim.
As for the Belgium regulations - they are attempting to regulate something that is not in their jurisdiction to regulate - my vessel is UK registered - therefore any VAT/TAX infringements are for HMRC to deal with. I could understand them prosecuting if we filled up in Belgium with the incorrect fuel, but that we have filled up in another country with fuel legal in that country - and can prove it - should not be of their concern.
In stating that they will fine anyone with dye in their tanks they have alienated pretty much all UK boats plus those from Ireland and also by return, restricted any non-UK vessel that may have filled up with marine diesel in the UK or Ireland - ie a complete trade embargo for tourist leisure sailors in and out of Belgium waters.
sailorman
Well-known member
Tranona
Well-known member
It is pointless going on about VAT/TAX. The Belgian action is nothing to do with that. It is to do with the Fiscal Marking Directive - that is the dye in the fuel. As has been pointed out by others they seem to be applying the same sanctions to Belgian owned boats - so your point about registration is irrelevant. They are perfectly entitled to apply their own law in their own country - the argument is about whether that law is consistent with the objectives of the Directive - or rather whether our differently worded law is also consistent.
Please read the material published by the RYA and the Government which explains this clearly.
GrahamHR
Well-known member
My portable generator I use on the boat is petrol powered. If I want hot water/ heat on board I either have to run the generator or run the (petrol) main engine. I still pay full tax on the petrol used for these "domestic" applications. likewise for the domestic chores like mowing the grass, cutting the hedges etc.I can't see it's fair to differentiate between the use of diesel and petrol for domestic applications in this way. I'd be prepared to put red dye in my petrol if I could get part of the tax/ duty back !
PS the lawns and hedges are not on the boat !
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Koeketiene
Well-known member
According to Ostend HM, since sterling went south in relation to the euro, Brit boats no longer visit Belgium in their hundreds. He doubts there even were 100 last year.
UK customs crackdown on boats visiting Belgium to buy duty-free did not help either.
Dutch customs checks Dutch boats for red diesel too. So they tend to avoid fuelling in Britain rather than risk a fine on the continent.
Whilst UK boats might get away with red on the continent depending on the goodwill of the douane, no such leniency is being shown towards local boats.
I sail at least once per year to the continent to fuel (100 gal) - should I get caught short -> jerry can road diesel.
Because it was warranted - enough Belgian-baiting in this thread.
+1
End of discussion.
Heckler
Active member
And me!Dear guapa,
feel free to put me on your "Ignore" list.
Stu
Robin
Well-known member
I can see where you are coming from and sympathise. However petrol is not generally used on land as household heating fuel so there would never be a need to dye it to prevent a low tax version of it, should one exist, being used for propulsion. Petrol may be used for small generators and small motors as in mowers etc, but in small quantities maybe not to justify a campaign for a reduced tax version? Who knows, that is a pure guess!
This whole thing is a real buggers muddle. My guess is that anyone reading this thread and press reports will take one look and decide that Belgium is not on the preferred destinations list and simply look elsewhere. I know I would if we were still boating over here and east coast based. Most of us go boating to relieve stress and enjoy the simple pleasures of life afloat. Getting embroiled in bureaucratic claptrap like this and risking substantial fines imposed by a bunch of EU rule reading Belgian jobsworths who can't even decide which language to speak is not my idea of relaxation! I dare say that will upset Johan and know that it is not his fault or that of the boating fraternity over there, but hey it even more so should not be our problem either when we are complying completely with the rules.
BrianH
Active member
I agree. These fora have their full complement of xenophobic little Englanders who like to indulge in their Johnnie-foreigner bashing, so often cloaked in thinly-disguised humorous quips - "just our British sense of humour, doncha know, some of me best friends are ......".
Try reading some of the EU-spat threads in the lounge. On second thoughts, don't.
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Ex-SolentBoy
New member
From The Telegraph...
"In a further blow, Belgium separately saw its credit rating downgraded two notches, to Aa3, by another leading agency, Moody’s."
Clearly this is what happens if you lose the patronage of British yachties.
"In a further blow, Belgium separately saw its credit rating downgraded two notches, to Aa3, by another leading agency, Moody’s."
Clearly this is what happens if you lose the patronage of British yachties.
Bosun Higgs
N/A
Its entirely feasible. Reverse the system. All shoreside tanks to have white diesel in them but when a fishing boat comes along needing red diesel, he only gets the tax dispensation if red dye is added into his tank at the same time as the diesel. Yotties get white diesel unless they have a seperate diesel tank for heating only.
How many of us get our fuel from marinas where there are no serious fishing vessels anyway?
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Bosun Higgs
N/A
You never had diesel bug then?
NormanS
Well-known member
Well, actually, no.
Both my present boat, and on my previous boat, have well designed fuel tanks with sumps, fitted with drain valves, which are checked regularly. The tanks are deep, with relatively small bases, so that any dirt or water automatically finds its way into the sumps. As a result, there is no fuel / water interface, which is apparently where most bug development takes place.
I see many modern boats with flat bottom tanks, with no provision for draining off water or dirt.
I use only marine gas oil.
I have had no sign of problems with the bug, or choked filters for 40 years. (Touching wood, and keeping fingers crossed)
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Pye_End
Well-known member
Perhaps the bad press concerning red diesel fines has contributed to this? I for one fully inteded to do the Brugge trip this year, but changed plans for this very reason. Why take the risk when there are other good places to go?
Koeketiene
Well-known member
It works both ways.
There may have been fewer Brits, but last Summer there were more French and Dutch boats. Many of whom would have sailed for the UK.
None of them want to run the risk of being boarded by customs to have their tank checked after fuelling in the UK.
This was Ostend when we last were there end of July - hardly deserted.
chewi
Active member
That may be an advocacy for your tank design, but it doesnt argue that red diesel avoids fuel bug!
I certainly have with 100% red, but maybe its my tank design...
emnick
Member
ian38_39
Member
Red diesel in the UK is purely a way of maintaining marine diesel at a comparative cost to our European neighbours. If Hmrc did not rip off the motorist to such an extent then white would be comparable.
The cost of installing an extra tank is not that high but the fact that the diesel is not turned round at a sufficient rate to allow discount generating purchases, which are not passed on to boaters anyway, would be a major issue to marina operators.
The real issue here is that we are being over taxed on fuel full stop. Car owners don't have the same option to just fill up in another country.
If there is a floor in EU regulations it is that despite specifying a minimum tax rate it does not put a lid on the bottle to stop rogue governments charging far more than its EU conterparts.
My engines are petrol and in a recent discussion with HMRC the inspector could find no floor in the argument that the same courtesy should apply to petrol used for domestic purposes but ended the conversation with, unfortunately no you can't claim back the tax.
How is that any different than the Belgium stance?
The cost of installing an extra tank is not that high but the fact that the diesel is not turned round at a sufficient rate to allow discount generating purchases, which are not passed on to boaters anyway, would be a major issue to marina operators.
The real issue here is that we are being over taxed on fuel full stop. Car owners don't have the same option to just fill up in another country.
If there is a floor in EU regulations it is that despite specifying a minimum tax rate it does not put a lid on the bottle to stop rogue governments charging far more than its EU conterparts.
My engines are petrol and in a recent discussion with HMRC the inspector could find no floor in the argument that the same courtesy should apply to petrol used for domestic purposes but ended the conversation with, unfortunately no you can't claim back the tax.
How is that any different than the Belgium stance?
snooks
Active member
I guess after having been taxed for at least 25 years they get a break and so no longer pay VED, a tax on pollution the vehicle produces not the road it uses
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