confirmed - belgians will fine you for having red diesel in your tank

[NormanS]

Just because I don't use large amounts of fuel doesn't mean I don't live in the real world, that's an unnecessary comment I think.
My point is, as we are paying the duty, we should be supplied the appropriate product. I do understand that filling large tanks from cans is not an option and that it's difficult to buy other than red diesel in most areas. However we can't blame the Belgians for that.
What's summer got to do with it?
Well, I contend that more people use their boats in the summer and are likely not to use their heating as much as they do in winter. My boat does not have diesel powered heating but I'm still asked if I want to declare the 60 / 40 split. If I did I think that would be tax evasion, not tax avoidance.

Nobody forces you to accept the 60 / 40 split. It's only tax evasion if you ask for it while knowing that you are not entitled to it. Surely no-one here would do that.

My comment about the real world was because if you only use 30 to 40 litres in a year, it doesn't really affect you.

 

[NormanS]

This is often said, but do we have any evidence for it? Red diesel certainly does grow bugs - but not very often - do French yachts fail every spring when they try to run on a tank full of rotten white diesel?

If you care to do some research, you will find well documented evidence that having FAME in the fuel leads to the fuel being less stable. Apparently it can also cause deterioration of some seals in the fuel system.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

I keep coming back to a question I asked earlier and which no-one has been able to answer so far. What Belgian Law was broken for you to be found guilty and fined under? You can't fine an individual for breaking an EU directive - as mentioned before they are aimed at the countries that are signatories, and require the countries to enact laws.

Unless the Belgian Law says "You must not use fuel marked with a marker" then you haven't broken the law because the UK marker does not signify tax-free fuel. It can't because you've got a receipt showing you've paid tax on it.

I would think that there's a good chance that the law used to levy the fine actually refers to "fuel that at is marked to indicate that it is tax-free" or something like that.

 

[MoodySabre]

If you care to do some research, you will find well documented evidence that having FAME in the fuel leads to the fuel being less stable. Apparently it can also cause deterioration of some seals in the fuel system.

Moodynick (a marina manager) did post a few weeks that there was FAME free white diesel on it's way sometime next year. The problem then shifts to marinas, like mine, where there are fishing boats and there is only one tank.

 

[Tranona]

I keep coming back to a question I asked earlier and which no-one has been able to answer so far. What Belgian Law was broken for you to be found guilty and fined under? You can't fine an individual for breaking an EU directive - as mentioned before they are aimed at the countries that are signatories, and require the countries to enact laws.

Unless the Belgian Law says "You must not use fuel marked with a marker" then you haven't broken the law because the UK marker does not signify tax-free fuel. It can't because you've got a receipt showing you've paid tax on it.

I would think that there's a good chance that the law used to levy the fine actually refers to "fuel that at is marked to indicate that it is tax-free" or something like that.

Already covered that in several earlier posts above. Directives are not law. Each state brings in its own laws to comply with directives. The Belgians are using their own law, in which the usage of fuel is determined by its colour. As has been reported it is applying it equally to its own residents and visitors.

 

[GrahamHR]

Moodynick (a marina manager) did post a few weeks that there was FAME free white diesel on it's way sometime next year. The problem then shifts to marinas, like mine, where there are fishing boats and there is only one tank.

In such a scenario, what's the problem? They could supply the commercial boats with white diesel at their duty free prices and leisure boats with the same diesel at the 60: 40 or whatever split level of duty applied ;...................Except the commercial fishermen could then use that white diesel in their cars, not that they ever would of course, we all know how they stick to regulations !

Or, have 2 hoses / nozzles and use a cheap colour injection unit at the dispensing nozzle that only adds the dye to the commercial guys' diesel as it's being dispensed; it wouldn't really matter if the accuracy was +/- 50%

 

[chewi]

In such a scenario, what's the problem? They could supply the commercial boats with white diesel at their duty free prices and leisure boats with the same diesel at the 60: 40 or whatever split level of duty applied ;...................Except the commercial fishermen could then use that white diesel in their cars, not that they ever would of course, we all know how they stick to regulations !

Or, have 2 hoses / nozzles and use a cheap colour injection unit at the dispensing nozzle that only adds the dye to the commercial guys' diesel as it's being dispensed; it wouldn't really matter if the accuracy was +/- 50%

they'd still have to clean their tanks to an extent that the marking became undetectable. Apparently that is nigh on impossible.

 

[Heckler]

they'd still have to clean their tanks to an extent that the marking became undetectable. Apparently that is nigh on impossible.

Not true,in all my years of repairing diesel engines, stripping fuel pumps, stripping injectors to calibrate them, I have never seen any sign of red dye on the components. I am talking about off road vehicules and locomotives running on red by the way.
I dont agree with the Belgians but lets not spoil our argument by bandying around urban myths. I have copied the letter from the commission to the rya and the letter to the OP and also the address of this post to the daily mail and to boris johnson to see if they want to take this on board.
Stu

 

[Csail]

Sounds like an ideal UK/Belgium Anti-tourism campaign
"Belgium, just don't go there!"

Then add any number of images out of the minds of the "Sorry I haven't a clue" team...

Is it just the colour red that makes the Belgians see...um...red? For example if you treated your diesel with a bug biocide that made the fuel bright yellow, for example, would the Belgians accuse you of tax dodging?

Good point, carry a bottle of redx or om15 and say you just treated the tank.

 

[capsco]

You seem to have missed the point, unless I have also not understood it right.
By all means pay all the tax and use white if you like, but you'd still get fined for the traces of the red left behind,. however weak, because it was red once, regardless of its tax position, and I understand from earlier threads they fine not pro rata according to the perhaps minimal extent of the dye or the current fill level of the tank, but for the ENTIRE capacity of the tank, as if you'd never paid any tax on it at all.

It seems impossible to comply with the Belgian rules from the UK unless you buy a new tank and fill it with cans of white, which is not feasible for many. It's not a prob for me, I don't go there, but I understand the impossibility of the position for those who do.

Just to put a perspective on the above.

In April this year I crossed from Dover to Calais in my MB, topped up in Calais with 250lts white diesel, spent all season inland France, in October again topped up with 530lts white diesel, so now my craft is stood with 1300 litres of "Pink" in the tanks, can you imagine how I will feel if French customs turn awkward?

 

[duncanmack]

For your interest.

Fuel Duty rates
Fuel On and after 23 March 2011 On and after 1 January 2012
Unleaded petrol 0.5795 0.6097
Heavy oil (diesel) 0.5795 0.6097
Biodiesel 0.5795 0.6097
Bioethanol 0.5795 0.6097
Avtur used for private pleasure flying 0.5795 0.6097
Light oil (other than unleaded petrol or aviation gasoline) 0.6767 0.7069
Aviation gasoline (Avgas) 0.3770 0.3966
Light oil delivered to an approved person for use as furnace fuel
0.1070 0.1126
Marked gas oil 0.1114 0.1172
Fuel oil 0.1070 0.1126
Heavy oil other than fuel oil, gas oil or kerosene used as fuel 0.1070 0.1126
Kerosene to be used as motor fuel off-road or in an excepted vehicle 0.1114 0.1172
Biodiesel for non-road use 0.1114 0.1172
Biodiesel blended with gas oil for non-road use 0.1114 0.1172
Road fuel natural gas (NG), including biogas (£ per kg) 0.2470 0.2907
Road fuel gas other than NG - eg liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) (£ per kg) 0.3161 0.3734

[pedant and rant mode on]

It irks when folk rave on about "duty free fuel". You will note from the above table from HMCR that duty free it isn't. None of it is.
Red diesel (or marked gas oil) is a reduced duty fuel. That was the problem with the EU. As I recall they thought we couldn't have different duty rates for propelling leisure vehicles - i.e. leisure use boats - from leisure use cars etc.
I could point out the lunacy of the difference between commercial use boats and commercial use lorries etc etc, especially as for the purposes of taxation the duty is high for road use and rebated for non-road use, except that "roads" for the purposes of the various Acts can and does include waterways. However, that way lies madness, so I won't go there.
Our Government, bless them, chose to interpret the EU ruling so as we could still use our boats - as in actually get fuel - but meet the letter of the law.
Even better, we could continue to get rebated fuel for heating, lighting, generating purposes. Not only that, but we only pay VAT at 5% on all of the fuel and not at 20% - which we should really be paying. Good deal. Hats off to the government. Do you really want to have to pay another 15% for your fuel?

The Belgians/Dutch/French use a red marker for rebated fuel oil, as do we.
The Irish use a green marker, and I do not believe that is a problem in Belgium/Holland, although I'm prepared to be put right on that.
Change the colour of the bloody diesel.

Otherwise get someone with some time to spend to go to Belgium/Holland and flat refuse to pay any fine and get jailed for it. Then notify our Government that a British subject is in the jail, and why. See what transpires.
Unfortunately I'm a bit busy just now or I'd gladly volunteer. I'm not joking.
[rant off]
.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

Already covered that in several earlier posts above. Directives are not law. Each state brings in its own laws to comply with directives. The Belgians are using their own law, in which the usage of fuel is determined by its colour. As has been reported it is applying it equally to its own residents and visitors.

Where exactly? I can't see anything that actually says what law is being broken and the precise wording of that law? Apologies if I'm failing to see what's in front of my face....

 

[Beadle]

I hope this was an attempt at being sarcastic, but I'm afraid it merely reflects a rather shortsighted anti-european attitude that seems the norm on this forum but does not help to resolve the problem.

Belgian yachtsmen are just as much the victims of this absurd situation, as we risk being fined long after we have bought diesel in the UK. So what do we have to do? Pretend you are really in Mid-atlantic and stop coming to the UK? Any suggestions?

It was indeed an attempt at being sarcastic

The attitude it reflects is NOT anti-european it is anti EU- which is a very different thing.

I do not believe the test of whether someone is a "good European" should be judge on whether or not they support the latest pronouncement from Brussels.

I believe in a free Europe of many different countries where each country is free to make its own laws and run its own business.

What the EU has produced is a Europe where one set of rules and even one currency is being forced onto people who do not fit the model on which the rules and currency are based. So you see some countries driven into effective bankrupcy and other countries openly evading the unwelcome rules

Wherever one looks there are examples of laws being ignored for some, even the Commission has never had its accounts approved by the auditors.

How is it that illegal immigrants into the EU can find their way across several European countries and across the English Channel, do you really believe it is without collusion of our European "friends"

Why is it that European lorries can fill up in Europe with huge quantities of diesel come across the Channel and offer transport prices far below that which can be equalled by British companies, driving many of them out of business.

I can go on - but will stop here

 

[PeterGibbs]

Good point, carry a bottle of redx or om15 and say you just treated the tank.

Doesn't work. The one authenticated case of a UK vessel being stopped and fined included the taking of a sample from the tank for analysis.


PWG

 

[Burnham Bob]

Interesting you talk about the one authenticated case Peter Gibbs. The Belgians confirmed that they are fining everyone - see my original post - so I'm at a loss to explain why there has only been 'one authenticated case'

 

[sailorman]

Interesting you talk about the one authenticated case Peter Gibbs. The Belgians confirmed that they are fining everyone - see my original post - so I'm at a loss to explain why there has only been 'one authenticated case'

its down to the local chap on the day i guess, i have always found them very nice & polite, some might be abrasive toward them who knows

 

[Appledore]

I may have missed this along the way, but we in UK who use our craft at sea currently purchase diesel (red is not the issue here) at marinas at a reduced duty price, whereas car users purchasing from garages pay the full duty price. is that correct?

So, what happens on the Continent? Do boat owners pay the full road fuel price at marinas or do they also purchase at a reduced rate, or even just some countries? Just trying to clarify this 'duty' question.

What about the Irish green diesel. Is that sold at the full vehicle rate?

 

[sailorman]

I may have missed this along the way, but we in UK who use our craft at sea currently purchase diesel (red is not the issue here) at marinas at a reduced duty price, whereas car users purchasing from garages pay the full duty price. is that correct?

So, what happens on the Continent? Do boat owners pay the full road fuel price at marinas or do they also purchase at a reduced rate, or even just some countries? Just trying to clarify this 'duty' question.

What about the Irish green diesel. Is that sold at the full vehicle rate?

they pay road price + marina mark-up

 

[Appledore]

they pay road price + marina mark-up

Thank you

 

[MrCramp]

This is just another example of why we should leave the EEC as soon as possible. We would loose nothing but would get back our independence so the Gov. could concentrate on running this country and not waste time and money dealing with Brussels. I never wanted to go to Belgium anyway but I hope the French don't adopt such a daft stance.