confirmed - belgians will fine you for having red diesel in your tank

[maby]

Where does this come in to the equation Stew?
http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectio...ating Abroad/EUCommLetterandTrans30Sept08.pdf
Stu

Apparently nowhere. People seem to have tried waving this under Belgian noses without success - they (the Belgians) are intent on implementing the rules as they interpret them from EU statutes at least until the commission formally notifies them that they are wrong.

 

[maby]

Basically, they are going to interprate the rules as THEY see them, I presume the reference at the end is to do with this letter? http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectio...ating Abroad/EUCommLetterandTrans30Sept08.pdf
So one part says one thing, another says another and when we as piggy in the middle get caught the one with the gun fines you! Wonderful country, watching their ex prime minister the other day waffling on full of his own importance, wonkers, couldnt form their own government for over 500 days!
The sooner it is subsumed by Holland the better! (Although if their banks continue to fail, it will be Germany!)
Stu
Stu

I seem to remember that Holland is also fining us, aren't they?

 

[maby]

Strictly speaking, this is all the fault of the marinas and port fuel stations. The UK government is not saying that we must use red diesel, and the supply of red diesel is perfectly legal to commercial shipping.

I get my fuel from MDL marinas and the tax rebate I get for the heating component of it is too small for me to lose sleep over it if they switched to unmarked fuel. They are a private organisation and the government has no power or obligation to force them to put in an extra tank or stop supplying commercial users. The HMRC have done their best to find a solution for us by permitting the sale of red diesel with tax applied, but this does not satisfy a pedantic interpretation of EU rules.

I know that there are claims that road fuel is unsuitable for use in a marine environment, but is there any proof of this? Even red diesel can suffer from diesel-bug - do the treatments for that not work adequately on road fuel? Presumably all the continentals have been running on road fuel for several years now - I don't see dozens of French boats being towed in every year.

 

[Tranona]

I seem to remember that Holland is also fining us, aren't they?

Yes, there have been reports that the Dutch customs also reject that letter.

The point to remember is that Directives are not the law - it is up to the individual state to pass their own laws in line with the directives and to determine their own methods of enforcement.

The letter to the RYA concentrates on duty as our laws specifically allowed the use of marked fuel provided duty was paid.

The Belgians have presumably enacted a law that is based solely on marking with no reference to duty and are enforcing that law in their state.

As to whether France will follow the Belgian policy, that will depend on how their law is worded. Plus, of course whether they want to enforce it on visitors.

 

[MoodySabre]

Well if France join in then the vast south coast navy will be affected and the comments like "Well just don't go there then" will be seen for what they are - not the point.

Perhaps someone who has been fined should sue the UK Govt for putting in place a situation which imperils UK citizens wishing to travel abroad.

 

[maby]

Well if France join in then the vast south coast navy will be affected and the comments like "Well just don't go there then" will be seen for what they are - not the point.

Perhaps someone who has been fined should sue the UK Govt for putting in place a situation which imperils UK citizens wishing to travel abroad.

I really do not see how it is the UK government's fault - they have tried to help as far as they reasonably can. It is just a case of pedantic interpretation of EU rules and difficult to defend against. As I said above, the UK government does not insist that we should use red diesel. If there's a fault in this country, it's the marinas that are at fault.

 

[peterb]

The UK government is not saying that we must use red diesel, and the supply of red diesel is perfectly legal to commercial shipping.

Does anyone know how Belgium defines "Commercial shipping"? How about a sailing school?

 

[NormanS]

surely the easiest way out of this is to change the type of diesel sold in UK marinas so that you are in line with the rest of Europe? As mentioned before in these threads, it is not only Belgian customs who are issuing fines.

Tell me why I should be forced to use a fuel which can't be stored in my tank over the winter, because it has bio-fuel in it, just to suit some foreign chocolate makers?

I am very happy to use red diesel, which doesn't "go off", and which doesn't grow bugs, and which doesn't choke filters. (And which is cheaper)

 

[NormanS]

. You need to remember that red diesel was only ever allowed as a short term dispensation from the EU to give the UK time to install white diesel facilities where necessary

Really? Chapter and verse please.

 

[Burnham Bob]

In response to the forumite who asked if i wanted the RYA and the British Government to bomb Brussels, the point I was trying to make when I said they were doing nothing is that in reality, the RYA guidance hasn't changed for ages, despite anecdotal evidence that the letter they suggest you wave at the Belgians does not work in avoiding fines.

I was unable to find any information at all from any source as to any progress on this issue although the RYA and the UK government are apparently "discussing the matter/in legal negotiation" with the EU.

It was also not exactly certain what the Belgian attitude was. Now we know, and it's pefectly clear. Even if you have paid duty on it, you will be fined if your diesel contains red dye. This is in advance of any EU ruling so things are not 'subject to the outcome of the current legal process'. Fines are inevitable. Before I contacted the Belgian Embassy, as far as I know, no one had cast iron confirmation that was the policy. At least, now we know.

But who can do anything about it? I've sent the e-mail to the RYA legal team, and my Euro MP. Maybe I should chain myself to the railings of the Belgian embassy. Any advice from our anchoring and mooring experts on whether it should be 6mm or 8mm chain?

 

[maby]

Tell me why I should be forced to use a fuel which can't be stored in my tank over the winter, because it has bio-fuel in it, just to suit some foreign chocolate makers?

I am very happy to use red diesel, which doesn't "go off", and which doesn't grow bugs, and which doesn't choke filters. (And which is cheaper)

This is often said, but do we have any evidence for it? Red diesel certainly does grow bugs - but not very often - do French yachts fail every spring when they try to run on a tank full of rotten white diesel?

 

[NormanS]

Here's a radical thought, as we are paying for white diesel, why can't we have it?
The fact that marinas will only sell us dyed fuel is really not the Belgians problem, it's ours.
I've started using diesel bought in cans from a filling station in preparation for next year's trip. I know it's easy for me as I only use 30/40 litres a year, much more of a problem for motor boaters, but perhaps they should complain to their suppliers, not expect the Belgian Government to make exceptions.
I know there's this 60 / 40 split thing, but how many boats really use 40% fuel for heating in our summer? If not it's just tax evasion.

Ok, as you say, it's easy for you, with your 30/40 litres per year, but some of us in the real world use a lot more. Many of us are not marina based, and buy our fuel from fishing / workboat suppliers, so can only use red diesel, which is better anyway.

Some of us who sail in the north of the UK use at least 40% for heating, lighting etc.
What's summer got to do with it?
Tax evasion is a criminal offence, and I think it is unlikely that MHRC would be a party to it. Possibly you really mean tax avoidance, which is perfectly legal.

 

[FishyInverness]

just to suit some foreign chocolate makers?

Any chance that this kind of comment could be curbed a wee bit? There is obviously a Belgian sailor on this thread who has been kind enough to agree that his Government department is being barmy, and sympathise, and I think it a bit unfair to throw a stereotype of his countrymen in for him to read and possibly feel a bit put-out by.

I know that if I'd gone onto a foreign website where someone was discussing, eg, The Congestion Charge, to sympathise that we have a barmy Government, and then got told something like "Why would we have to pay for the barmy Mad Cow Eaters to have too much traffic" I'd feel it wasn't worth the effort trying to put out that there are people in that country in sympathy.....

Just a personal thought.

 

[Fascadale]

Originally Posted by NormanS
just to suit some foreign chocolate makers?

Any chance that this kind of comment could be curbed a wee bit? There is obviously a Belgian sailor on this thread who has been kind enough to agree that his Government department is being barmy, and sympathise, and I think it a bit unfair to throw a stereotype of his countrymen in for him to read and possibly feel a bit put-out by.

I know that if I'd gone onto a foreign website where someone was discussing, eg, The Congestion Charge, to sympathise that we have a barmy Government, and then got told something like "Why would we have to pay for the barmy Mad Cow Eaters to have too much traffic" I'd feel it wasn't worth the effort trying to put out that there are people in that country in sympathy.....

Just a personal thought.

+1

Xenophobia verging on racism: destroys an otherwise reasonable discussion

 

[DanTribe]

Ok, as you say, it's easy for you, with your 30/40 litres per year, but some of us in the real world use a lot more. Many of us are not marina based, and buy our fuel from fishing / workboat suppliers, so can only use red diesel, which is better anyway.

Some of us who sail in the north of the UK use at least 40% for heating, lighting etc.
What's summer got to do with it?
Tax evasion is a criminal offence, and I think it is unlikely that MHRC would be a party to it. Possibly you really mean tax avoidance, which is perfectly legal.

Just because I don't use large amounts of fuel doesn't mean I don't live in the real world, that's an unnecessary comment I think.
My point is, as we are paying the duty, we should be supplied the appropriate product. I do understand that filling large tanks from cans is not an option and that it's difficult to buy other than red diesel in most areas. However we can't blame the Belgians for that.
What's summer got to do with it?
Well, I contend that more people use their boats in the summer and are likely not to use their heating as much as they do in winter. My boat does not have diesel powered heating but I'm still asked if I want to declare the 60 / 40 split. If I did I think that would be tax evasion, not tax avoidance.

 

[Supine Being]

This is often said, but do we have any evidence for it? Red diesel certainly does grow bugs - but not very often - do French yachts fail every spring when they try to run on a tank full of rotten white diesel?

It's not the colour of the diesel that's the problem. Presumably their marinas can still specify that they require non-bio diesel, as do ours?

 

[chewi]

Strictly speaking, this is all the fault of the marinas and port fuel stations. The UK government is not saying that we must use red diesel, and the supply of red diesel is perfectly legal to commercial shipping.

I get my fuel from MDL marinas and the tax rebate I get for the heating component of it is too small for me to lose sleep over it if they switched to unmarked fuel. They are a private organisation and the government has no power or obligation to force them to put in an extra tank or stop supplying commercial users. The HMRC have done their best to find a solution for us by permitting the sale of red diesel with tax applied, but this does not satisfy a pedantic interpretation of EU rules.

I know that there are claims that road fuel is unsuitable for use in a marine environment, but is there any proof of this? Even red diesel can suffer from diesel-bug - do the treatments for that not work adequately on road fuel? Presumably all the continentals have been running on road fuel for several years now - I don't see dozens of French boats being towed in every year.

You seem to have missed the point, unless I have also not understood it right.
By all means pay all the tax and use white if you like, but you'd still get fined for the traces of the red left behind,. however weak, because it was red once, regardless of its tax position, and I understand from earlier threads they fine not pro rata according to the perhaps minimal extent of the dye or the current fill level of the tank, but for the ENTIRE capacity of the tank, as if you'd never paid any tax on it at all.

It seems impossible to comply with the Belgian rules from the UK unless you buy a new tank and fill it with cans of white, which is not feasible for many. It's not a prob for me, I don't go there, but I understand the impossibility of the position for those who do.

 

[NormanS]

Any chance that this kind of comment could be curbed a wee bit? There is obviously a Belgian sailor on this thread who has been kind enough to agree that his Government department is being barmy, and sympathise, and I think it a bit unfair to throw a stereotype of his countrymen in for him to read and possibly feel a bit put-out by.

I know that if I'd gone onto a foreign website where someone was discussing, eg, The Congestion Charge, to sympathise that we have a barmy Government, and then got told something like "Why would we have to pay for the barmy Mad Cow Eaters to have too much traffic" I'd feel it wasn't worth the effort trying to put out that there are people in that country in sympathy.....

Just a personal thought.

I did add a smiley, but if it has caused offence, I apologise sincerely

 

[FishyInverness]

None to me Norman, I was just thinking if it was me in his shoe's, i'd be a bit miffed....(Sorry, I missed the smiley!)

Devils Avocado and all that....

 

[maby]

You seem to have missed the point, unless I have also not understood it right.
By all means pay all the tax and use white if you like, but you'd still get fined for the traces of the red left behind,. however weak, because it was red once, regardless of its tax position, and I understand from earlier threads they fine not pro rata according to the perhaps minimal extent of the dye or the current fill level of the tank, but for the ENTIRE capacity of the tank, as if you'd never paid any tax on it at all.

It seems impossible to comply with the Belgian rules from the UK unless you buy a new tank and fill it with cans of white, which is not feasible for many. It's not a prob for me, I don't go there, but I understand the impossibility of the position for those who do.

You are, of course, right under the current circumstances. I suspect that, if we were to actively demonstrate that we were switching from the use of red diesel in pleasure boats, we could probably negotiate a degree of understanding from the Belgian authorities - they are currently just digging in their heels and enforcing the EU regulations pedantically.

But I come back to the point that the UK government has limited scope to help us beyond what they have already done. I believe that HMRC has lodged a protest in our behalf with the commission - which is, in itself, surprising since we are such a small cog in the enormous EU wheel. All things EU move very slowly and we should not hold our breath for a ruling.

HMRC could, of course, do what the commission want them to do which is to outlaw the sale of red diesel to us under any circumstances - not only could we not sail to Belgium, we could not sail twenty miles along the UK coast.

Alternatively, they could ban the sale of red diesel to all marine users - that would go down really well with all the commercial users.

If none of the above happen, the only remaining option is for ports and marinas to offer white diesel to us - but they will need to either stop serving the commercial user base, or install second tanks. Ultimately, we are going to have to get sufficient outlets ssupplying non-marked diesel to marine users. marinas can probably do that fairly quickly if enough of their users ask for it - the number of commercial users they supply is relatively small. Not sure what the answer is for those of you who do not have a nearby marina! :-(