Stemar
Well-known member
The rudder on my 24 footer has jammed and I'm steering (just) by means of a bucket over the side. I think that would qualify. It's only when the rope breaks and I lose the bucket that I'm NUC.
Colregs: Restricted in her Ability to Manœuvre is not intended to be used by leisure yachts.
- Thread starter Gary Fox
- Start date
john_morris_uk
Well-known member
I concede on the arguments regarding RAM applies to vessels who are restricted in their ability to manoeuvre ‘due to the nature of their work’ but the use of the word ‘work’ has nothing to do with whether the activity is commercial or not. Money passing hands is not relevant. It’s quite easy to envisage a pleasure boat being RAM ‘due to the nature of her work”...
The fact that small vessels aren’t obliged to show day shapes doesn’t mean they can’t or shouldn’t do so if they can. I remember John Goode (Master Mariner IIRC) showing me how to make RAM shapes out of the cone and anchor ball one normally carries.
The fact that small vessels aren’t obliged to show day shapes doesn’t mean they can’t or shouldn’t do so if they can. I remember John Goode (Master Mariner IIRC) showing me how to make RAM shapes out of the cone and anchor ball one normally carries.
dom
Well-known member
Couple of years ago c.7pm Wind SW F6ish as we arrived off Start Point. Forecast was moderating and veering NW overnight opening Ouessant on the nose, Yay!
"Ready about" said I.
"I think we should stop in Salcombe for the night", said the Mrs
NUC: inconsistent with Cockroft and Lameijer
RAM: Nope
So I went for:
She was definitely about to explode
"Ready about" said I.
"I think we should stop in Salcombe for the night", said the Mrs
NUC: inconsistent with Cockroft and Lameijer
RAM: Nope
So I went for:
She was definitely about to explode
RichardS
N/A
I agree with that ..... but the rules do appear to distinguish between vessels which are RAM because the nature of what they are engaged in is the cause of the RAM and vessels which are RAM for other reasons.
To my thinking, a leisure yacht towing its tender in the normal fashion is not engaged in an operation/work and therefore cannot be RAM whereas a leisure vessel towing another vessel as part of a rescue operation is engaged in an operation and could be RAM if the towed vessel was ungainly enough.
Richard
Mark-1
Well-known member
The "due to the nature of her work" test, taking the definition of work to be "operation", raises an amusing question. If a pleasure vessel's current task is to win a race and in order to achive that operation she must sail the most efficient course around the marks without deviating, then....
Of course, someone could argue, "Ahhh, but she is able to safely deviate from her course by performing her operation less well." but the response would be "so could a dredger."
Gotta love col regs. ?
Of course, someone could argue, "Ahhh, but she is able to safely deviate from her course by performing her operation less well." but the response would be "so could a dredger."
Gotta love col regs. ?
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Mark-1
Well-known member
In all seriousness I'm now wondering if the word "work" was chosen to imply a non-trivial 'operation'. So a Leisure boat can't just call pretty much everything it's doing 'work'.
So C and L are right with 'operation' - it doesn't have to be paid work - but it must be a serious/significant operation hence 'work'.
Not sure where that leaves a professional yacht race.
Gary Fox
N/A
My reading of the definition of RAM does not allow for 'other reasons', it's quite clear.
What 'not limited to' means is, the types of work mentioned, which are given as examples; it doesn't mean any possible circumstance which might make your vessel less handy to manœuvre.
Aardee
Well-known member
The difference between restricted and inconvenienced? - They can manoeuvre, they'd just rather not.
RichardS
N/A
A professional race yacht may well be working/operating but there is no way that it could argue that having to round a mark means that it is RAM. Restricted in this case clearly means physically restricted not mentally/emotionally/competitively restricted.
Richard
Mark-1
Well-known member
So could a dredger.
john_morris_uk
Well-known member
I completely agree.
I don’t think I’d make any attempt to argue a yacht race was ‘work’ whether it’s a professional international race or the local yacht club with Thursday night enthusiastic amateurs.
Gary Fox
N/A
Not necessarily, she might have a suction tube resting on the seabed, raising the tube is not done by touching a button, it's a task in itself involving men and machinery.
Black Sheep
Well-known member
I shouldn't join in a colregs debate, but...
OK, RAM is defined in terms of "the nature of [a vessel's] work".
But what is a "leisure yacht"?
As JM points out, Colregs don't care about leisure/commercial/whatever, so the term isn't defined. It's just a set of words we use in conversation.
If you choose to define "leisure yacht" as "a vessel that is not used for work" then the title of this thread becomes true by definition. But you might not be using the term in the same way as everyone else.
A lot of vessels that I would describe as "leisure yachts" do engage in what I would describe as "work".
So that's the first key question - is it possible for a leisure yacht to engage in work?
The second question, can the nature of the work restrict the vessel's ability to manoeuvre as required by the regs?
Some examples I suggest...
- Tillergirl of this parish operates what I would describe as a leisure motor yacht, and uses it to survey parts of the Thames Estuary.
- Scottie, also of this parish, describes laying marks in Loch Fyne. I don't know the nature of that specific vessel, but I'm sure much mark and mooring laying is done by boats that I would usually describe as leisure yachts.
- On occasion, a leisure yacht is used for the solemn purpose of scattering ashes
- Leisure yachts are used to tow other vessels; in some circumstances the nature of the tow may restrict the ability to manoeuvre.
My thoughts are that all the above are examples of where a leisure vessel is engaged in work. (all unpaid, to the best of my knowledge, but work nevertheless). I would argue that in these examples, the nature of the work restricts the boats ability to manoeuvre... others may disagree!
Whether it would be helpful to raise the shapes/lights for these circumstances, I leave as a different argument.
OK, RAM is defined in terms of "the nature of [a vessel's] work".
But what is a "leisure yacht"?
As JM points out, Colregs don't care about leisure/commercial/whatever, so the term isn't defined. It's just a set of words we use in conversation.
If you choose to define "leisure yacht" as "a vessel that is not used for work" then the title of this thread becomes true by definition. But you might not be using the term in the same way as everyone else.
A lot of vessels that I would describe as "leisure yachts" do engage in what I would describe as "work".
So that's the first key question - is it possible for a leisure yacht to engage in work?
The second question, can the nature of the work restrict the vessel's ability to manoeuvre as required by the regs?
Some examples I suggest...
- Tillergirl of this parish operates what I would describe as a leisure motor yacht, and uses it to survey parts of the Thames Estuary.
- Scottie, also of this parish, describes laying marks in Loch Fyne. I don't know the nature of that specific vessel, but I'm sure much mark and mooring laying is done by boats that I would usually describe as leisure yachts.
- On occasion, a leisure yacht is used for the solemn purpose of scattering ashes
- Leisure yachts are used to tow other vessels; in some circumstances the nature of the tow may restrict the ability to manoeuvre.
My thoughts are that all the above are examples of where a leisure vessel is engaged in work. (all unpaid, to the best of my knowledge, but work nevertheless). I would argue that in these examples, the nature of the work restricts the boats ability to manoeuvre... others may disagree!
Whether it would be helpful to raise the shapes/lights for these circumstances, I leave as a different argument.
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RichardS
N/A
A dredger can manoeuvre but if it is engaged in dredging (its operation/work) then it is restricted in its ability to do so unless it ceases its operation. I would assume that the whole point of ColRegs is to try and ensure that such vessels (fishing also) do not have to cease their operations to avoid a collision.
Richard
john_morris_uk
Well-known member
Completely agree.
‘Work’ is associated with payment and commercial activities in people’s minds but actually has several meanings. cf use of the term ‘work’ in applied maths or engineering
Mark-1
Well-known member
I've had a think and I've concluded my pro yacht race example is wrong. A racing yacht isn't actually restricted in its ability to manoever. I think it meets the work test but fails to meet the restricted test in any sane way. (any more than a pilot boat would).
I was so fixated on work I didn't pay any attention to "restricted".
Sorry to lead everyone off into the weeds.
I was so fixated on work I didn't pay any attention to "restricted".
Sorry to lead everyone off into the weeds.
RichardS
N/A
Gary Fox
N/A
I'm saying that RAM status can only result from the 'nature of the work she is engaged in', not random misfortunes such as a damaged rudder, nor anything else which unexpectedly occurs, including towing another yacht.I'm not sure whether you are agreeing with me?
Richard
I totally agree that Tillergirl's surveys, for example, are work, albeit unpaid.
JumbleDuck
Well-known member
Doesn't that simply mean that "by nature of work" is a necessary condition but not a sufficient one?
Aardee
Well-known member
Don't apologise, it's always good to test assumptions