scottie
Well-known member
I do recall that when mark laying at Scottish series in Loch Fyne we did display 
️?️ As well as. ??????? M
️?️ As well as. ??????? M
Colregs: Restricted in her Ability to Manœuvre is not intended to be used by leisure yachts.
- Thread starter Gary Fox
- Start date
alan_d
Well-known member
You don't need to bother with NUC or RAM lights and shapes if your vessel is under 12 metres in length "except those engaged in diving operations". [Rule 27 (g).] This also implies that leisure vessels "engaged in diving operations" must display RAM lights and shapes, possibly as modified by Rule 27 (e).
Caraway
Well-known member
Well. It IS a Col Regs thread. Has any set of rules been so widely misunderstood? Anywhere? Ever?
.
sarabande
Well-known member
I disagree. They are the epitome of language used for very precise reasons, and clearly defined by text and practice and historical evolution. which is why the recent court case is so controversial.
Caraway
Well-known member
I understood that English Law specifically supported anything, unless it was actually noted and prohibited.
ie: It would have to say "With the exception of pleasure vessels"
ie: It would have to say "With the exception of pleasure vessels"
Mark-1
Well-known member
I think the rules mean what they say. C and L broaden it out a bit by suggesting 'work' really means 'operations', which seems likely and answers the original question. I've seen no evidence that any court has ever decided "nature of work' can mean 'accidental damage'. If they wanted the rule to mean that they could simply have written 'for any reason'.
RAM means RAM "due to the nature of her work". For once, they've written it down for us so we know.
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Mark-1
Well-known member
NUC is defined in Rule 3 as a vessel that through exceptional circumstances cannot manoeuvre as required by the Rules, hence RichardS yacht with a rudder problem is NUC and not RAM as she cannot be properly controlled to make extensive changes of course.
Rule 3 then further qualifies the NUC definition to RAM by adding "from the nature of her work". I suggest that "work" entails "reward", so a yacht or mobo transferring passengers or goods to another recreational vessel does not become RAM. Perhaps an ice cream boat or marina or chandler's RIB does qualify for RAM ?
The sense of "exceptional" means out of the ordinary, and not necessarily emergency.
One notes that RAM is for vessels engaged in launching aircraft, so perhaps flying a drone requires black ball/diamond/ball.
It is clear that recreational vessels engaged in fishing with rods/lines etc which do not cause RAM are not "fishing vessels"
I incline firmly towards the Fox's original suggestion that RAM is not for leisure craft, who should use normal lights or shapes, or NUC if there is any steering problem even minor.
Wholeheartedly agree with all of this except C and L define 'work' in the sense of 'operations' and that seems a far more likely meaning of the term in this context. So if C and L are correct a Leisure boat can be RAM. Of course it's pretty rare that a leisure boat has to carry out "operations" of any kind and you could argue in those situations it's not really being used purely as a leisure vessel any more. (Except replenishing,, perhaps.)
I think C and L are right - work doesnt.always require payment - someone might work in their garden for instance, or 'work hard' on a run.
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MADRIGAL
Active member
MADRIGAL
Active member
Towing might qualify a yacht as RAM. Not being designed for towing, a yacht towing another could certainly experience difficulty in manoeuvring. A tug, on the other hand, owing to its special design, would not usually be RAM, although it could be if there were some unusual characteristic of the tow.
john_morris_uk
Well-known member
The rules do not distinguish between leisure and ‘working’ vessels.
Gary Fox
N/A
Interesting question.. I feel that the definition of RAM at least implies a distinction. Maybe it's the only bit of the Rules which can possibly be interpreted that way.
Yealm
Well-known member
To me NUC sounds like it means the captain/skipper is unwell or washed overboard so cannot command.
I think it's badly phrased (regardless of what they mean it to mean) !
Whereas RAM could be be planned or unplanned (from a purely intuitive perspective)
The obfuscating beauty of COLREGS
I think it's badly phrased (regardless of what they mean it to mean) !
Whereas RAM could be be planned or unplanned (from a purely intuitive perspective)
The obfuscating beauty of COLREGS
Gary Fox
N/A
A yacht towing another yacht would still be able to steer out of the way of other vessels, eg in a head-on situation, so not RAM.
Gary Fox
N/A
All these terms are well defined, without 'obfuscation', in the Rules, it's the 'intuitive perspectives' which cause the hang-ups..To me NUC sounds like it means the captain/skipper is unwell or washed overboard so cannot command.
I think it's badly phrased (regardless of what they mean it to mean) !
Whereas RAM could be be planned or unplanned (from a purely intuitive perspective)
The obfuscating beauty of COLREGS
Personally speaking, I would dearly love to be taught and study them in more detail and take some specific classroom course, followed by an exam or certificate; the RYA YM syllabus is rather light on this specific subject, but I don't know of any such courses. C and L only goes so far. (There is definitely a gap in the market as far as I'm concerned. )
Malabar
Member
A private megayacht operating a helicopter should display RAM.
Mark-1
Well-known member
Yeah, that's consistent with C and L's 'operations' definition of 'work' which seems to me the most likely interpretation.
Gary Fox
N/A
Yes, IF: the helo operations prevented her from getting out of the way of other vessels, as she would normally be expected to do by their masters.
D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
In that case a leisure yacht involved in a helicopter rescue may be RAM, I would have thought.
Poignard
Well-known member
I will instruct my officers to bear that in mind in future.
Gary Fox
N/A
We did a hi-line exercise with a Sea-King from Culdrose, and yes the yacht (if possible) must motor in a straight line with the wind on the starboard bow, so unable to comply with the Rules.
Declaring RAM status seems far-fetched, if another vessel could see your shapes, he might also have seen and heard the big noisy helicopter above the boat