Heckler
Active member
Peter,
Check the heater on the manifold, is there a fuel type comnnection on it? If not it will just be a heating coil, that is supposed to heat the air going past it.
Stu
Cold starting tips required
- Thread starter pcatterall
- Start date
Check the heater on the manifold, is there a fuel type comnnection on it? If not it will just be a heating coil, that is supposed to heat the air going past it.
Stu
savageseadog
Well-known member
Fisherman is spot on about the battery. I would add that it might be worth upgrading the battery leads with thicker ones, renewing crimp terminals, cleaning all connections and contacts. You don't want to lose more than a volt through the whole starting circuit, preferably less than 0.5V. You can check that by putting a meter across the battery terminals while cranking then checking at the starter terminals.
maxi77
Active member
+1 I replaced the old starter battery on my boat with a large car starter battery and all my starting problems went away.
rotrax
Well-known member
The engine on my Scudo is not shagged, the heater glow plugs are siezed in so they cant be changed. It has been fine all summer but wont go in tempretures around zero. As I said before, a ONE SECOND squirt into the air filter housing makes it light up easily. I can see where you are coming from but in 45 years of fixing engines I have never seen what you describe attributed to the use of Easystart. I am not suggesting it has not or cannot happen but as yet I have not experienced it as a repairer or owner of any diesel vehicle or engine. If I ruin my Scudo engine I will post on here immediatly and put my hands up. Dont hold your breath.........
brianhumber
New member
+2.
A good cranking speed is vital and often over looked. I have had to remove the starter governor on Paxman airstarters to get enough speed to start cylinders firing on worn engines.
Re Easystart - as with a lot of things its how this is applied that is the key, too much and you do get pre- ignition with potential for damage. Add a little and no damage is done. We certainly used easystart to get aircooled open lifeboat Petter/Lister and the forward fire pump engines ( 4 cylinder Ford) started when trading in the Baltic Ice in winter.
Brian
maxi77
Active member
The old Enfield HO2 engines in 3 in 1 whalers and 25 ft motor cutters in the RN had KYGAS which was some kind of built in easystart stuff. Sometimes you could even hand crank them.
PCUK
Well-known member
The pre-heater is called a "Thermostart" (not to be confused with thermostat!) When power is applied a bi-metal strip heats up and opens a valve that allows fuel to flow onto the hot strip which vaporises the fuel. As the engine is turned the oxygen being drawn over the strip causes the vaporised fuel to ignite and the flame is drawn into the cylinders to assist the cold starting.
The first fuel supply to the Thermostart was a manually filled reservoir. This was replaced by a smaller reservoir automatically filled from the fuel return and no longer needed manual filling. The last incarnation simply had a feed from the spare outlet on the fuel filter straight to the Thermostart. Earlier versions can easily be converted to the latest spec'. If you have a flame the Thermostart is OK if you don't simply fit a replacement.
The first fuel supply to the Thermostart was a manually filled reservoir. This was replaced by a smaller reservoir automatically filled from the fuel return and no longer needed manual filling. The last incarnation simply had a feed from the spare outlet on the fuel filter straight to the Thermostart. Earlier versions can easily be converted to the latest spec'. If you have a flame the Thermostart is OK if you don't simply fit a replacement.
pcatterall
Well-known member
PCUK
Many thanks, very useful, I will check out my system just to see exactly what I have.
As I said there is no little tank ( about 1 litre) as on the last boat but I will follow the system and see if there is a small tank or direct feed from filter.
Possibly my bi-metalic strip is heating (hence the whisp of smoke) but fuel is either not getting there or not being ignited.
Now I know what to look for I feel a bit more confident.
Thanks everyone!
Many thanks, very useful, I will check out my system just to see exactly what I have.
As I said there is no little tank ( about 1 litre) as on the last boat but I will follow the system and see if there is a small tank or direct feed from filter.
Possibly my bi-metalic strip is heating (hence the whisp of smoke) but fuel is either not getting there or not being ignited.
Now I know what to look for I feel a bit more confident.
Thanks everyone!
sailorman
Well-known member
My lowline did not have a separate tank.
Stemar
Well-known member
Thread drift (Sorry!)
My VP2003 always starts eventually, but can take a LOT of churning, especially in cold weather or if I've not been down for a while. Would I be able to fit a thermostart to that?
If so, could I fit it to the air cleaner (easy), or would I have to drill & tap the inlet manifold (pita)?
My VP2003 always starts eventually, but can take a LOT of churning, especially in cold weather or if I've not been down for a while. Would I be able to fit a thermostart to that?
If so, could I fit it to the air cleaner (easy), or would I have to drill & tap the inlet manifold (pita)?
charles_reed
Active member
Continuing thread-drift:-
Kigass - oh I remember that.
You had it on pre-1930's petrol engines as well - used to just squirt fuel into the inlet manifold to make up for inefficient carburettors.
Most modern indirect-injection engines have preheaters, ceramic elements in the pre-combustion chambers.
With common-rail engines you just have to take pot-luck, though modern diesel Peugeots in Finland are fitted with induction manifold heaters, run off the mains powerpoint every carparking position has fitted.
They also have in-sump heaters and the cars are fitted with a warm-air blower off the same 230v power-point.
Kigass - oh I remember that.
You had it on pre-1930's petrol engines as well - used to just squirt fuel into the inlet manifold to make up for inefficient carburettors.
Most modern indirect-injection engines have preheaters, ceramic elements in the pre-combustion chambers.
With common-rail engines you just have to take pot-luck, though modern diesel Peugeots in Finland are fitted with induction manifold heaters, run off the mains powerpoint every carparking position has fitted.
They also have in-sump heaters and the cars are fitted with a warm-air blower off the same 230v power-point.
Pete735
Member
PCUK has explained the Thermostart operation perfectly and if you can see a wisp of smoke then it's working ok, yes and if you remove the dome shaped inlet manifold cover then you will actually see a flame - unnerving the first time.
I use the Perkins recommended 20 second technique and my 4108 starts within 4 or 5 seconds every time, doesn't seem to matter whether I have left it a week in summer or 3 months over the winter.
What made a difference on mine was the injectors. Previous owner always used Easystart as engine was a poor starter. I removed injectors and had them reconditioned ( 2 of them were in very bad shape I was told), that was 4 years ago and have not looked back. Not cheap, cost me £ 150.00 for the 4 including the vat back then.
As many have said, it's a big heavy lump to turn over so make sure battery and starter/connections are in good shape. I also got my starter reconditioned last winter at local auto electrical place just to stay on top of things.
I use the Perkins recommended 20 second technique and my 4108 starts within 4 or 5 seconds every time, doesn't seem to matter whether I have left it a week in summer or 3 months over the winter.
What made a difference on mine was the injectors. Previous owner always used Easystart as engine was a poor starter. I removed injectors and had them reconditioned ( 2 of them were in very bad shape I was told), that was 4 years ago and have not looked back. Not cheap, cost me £ 150.00 for the 4 including the vat back then.
As many have said, it's a big heavy lump to turn over so make sure battery and starter/connections are in good shape. I also got my starter reconditioned last winter at local auto electrical place just to stay on top of things.
PCUK
Well-known member
Stemar, yes you can fit a Thermostart in your air cleaner. I fitted one to my BMC 1.5 wing engine when the glow plugs failed and then snapped off in the head. It worked perfectly for several years (better than the glow plugs in fact!) until I finally took the head off and replaced the glow plugs.
rotrax
Well-known member
Hi, our previous boat had a 2003. It was also a poor starter from cold whatever the weather. I followed the recomended procedure with no luck- pull out the stop button fully, return, two thirds throttle and crank- IIRC. Even with a new H/D start battery it was too much cranking. I was worried about the starter motor which got very hot. As the engine sounded good, did not use an excessive amount of oil and would start readily after that first difficult start of the day I was happy it had no major issues. I turned the air intake tube upwards so it was easy to squirt in a bit of Easystart and had no further problems. Between myself and the guy at the VP dealers we diagnosed that the excess fuel delivery system-actioned by pulling and returning the stop button-was not working, therefore no extra fuel for a cold start. Not easy or cheap to fix but easy to bypass with an alternative method. As others have said on this forum,dont overdo it, a one second squirt is all you need. An ex RN freind of mine often reminices about "wafting a few drops of ether over the air intake" on a cold morning. Obviously pre aerasol days.........
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pappaecho
New member
My old 4108 had a dodgy "preheater".
In very cold conditions I used plan B. SWMBO bought a 12 volt hair dryer which was almost useless ( her words not mine)
However placed near the air inlet of the engine,for a couple of minutes meant that the engine started near instantly
In very cold conditions I used plan B. SWMBO bought a 12 volt hair dryer which was almost useless ( her words not mine)
However placed near the air inlet of the engine,for a couple of minutes meant that the engine started near instantly
CAPTAIN FANTASTIC
Well-known member
Diesel engines can go on for ever however, the better the compression the quicker will reach the temperature to ignite the diesel oil.
When the engine is old, the compression is lower either due to worn out piston rings or valve seats or valve guides. However, even an old engine with worn parts will "seal" when hot.
In order to start an old engine, you may need to crank it for a long time to reach the right temperature to ignite the diesel oil; in the process, there is a danger or wearing out the piston and other moving parts, even more, due to lack of lubrication as the oil is cold.
Also, cranking increases the possibility for the diesel oil to pass through the piston rings and contaminate / dilute the lubricating engine oil. Therefore, the quicker you start the engine the better; so a bit of ether / easy-start or ever a spray of WD40 or hot air down the intake will help the engine to last even longer.
Anything to help the engine to start with absolute minimum cranking and ensure that you don't idle the engine , rev it up bit to ensure there is adequate oil pressure and hence lubrication.
When the engine is old, the compression is lower either due to worn out piston rings or valve seats or valve guides. However, even an old engine with worn parts will "seal" when hot.
In order to start an old engine, you may need to crank it for a long time to reach the right temperature to ignite the diesel oil; in the process, there is a danger or wearing out the piston and other moving parts, even more, due to lack of lubrication as the oil is cold.
Also, cranking increases the possibility for the diesel oil to pass through the piston rings and contaminate / dilute the lubricating engine oil. Therefore, the quicker you start the engine the better; so a bit of ether / easy-start or ever a spray of WD40 or hot air down the intake will help the engine to last even longer.
Anything to help the engine to start with absolute minimum cranking and ensure that you don't idle the engine , rev it up bit to ensure there is adequate oil pressure and hence lubrication.
fisherman
Well-known member
So what about the Lister SR 2 I had which had oil injectors on the intake manifold? You pulled out the plunger and filled the reservoir with lube oil, plunger shoved it into the inlet.
rotrax
Well-known member
The Lister oil injectors helped seal the bores and went some way towards eliminating some of the potential problems of overlong cranking times as a previous poster stated. I had experience of these engines in two and three cylinder form in narrow boats and generating sets. A proper low RPM diesel with heavy flywheels and a lovely regular beat. I would not fancy one in my boat today though.
omega2
Active member
No easy start
Our fork lift is a ---- to start when cold, a blow lamp on the inlet manifold does the trick, or in your case why not the wifes hair dryer much safer in the engine bay. Make sure your battery is good enough to crank the engine at least 500 rpm. As already stated.
Our fork lift is a ---- to start when cold, a blow lamp on the inlet manifold does the trick, or in your case why not the wifes hair dryer much safer in the engine bay. Make sure your battery is good enough to crank the engine at least 500 rpm. As already stated.
PCUK
Well-known member
As the 4108 is indirect injection, like all such engines, it will be almost impossible to start in cold weather without some sort of pre-heat even when the engine was brand new.