Cold starting tips required

[pcatterall]

The 'new' boats engine (Perkins 4108) does not seem to be as good a cold starter as the 4108 on my last boat.
There is 'heat' position on the key and I can see that it works ( whisps of smoke!) what is the optimum time to use the 'heat' position? can you overdo it? If the engine fails to fire up quickly has the heated fuel now been wasted and needs 'heating' again or what?
Is there a technique that anyone recommends like 20 " 'heat' and 10 seconds cranking??

I think in total it takes about 60" cranking to start does this mean that there is a danger of water backflow?
I have a speedseal plus impellor fitted, they are 'supposed' to suport a bit of dry cranking, would this be safe for this sort of start period.
Grateful as ever for the usual sound advice!!

 

[sailorman]

The 'new' boats engine (Perkins 4108) does not seem to be as good a cold starter as the 4108 on my last boat.
There is 'heat' position on the key and I can see that it works ( whisps of smoke!) what is the optimum time to use the 'heat' position? can you overdo it? If the engine fails to fire up quickly has the heated fuel now been wasted and needs 'heating' again or what?
Is there a technique that anyone recommends like 20 " 'heat' and 10 seconds cranking??

I think in total it takes about 60" cranking to start does this mean that there is a danger of water backflow?
I have a speedseal plus impellor fitted, they are 'supposed' to suport a bit of dry cranking, would this be safe for this sort of start period.
Grateful as ever for the usual sound advice!!

the perkie has a flame device in the inlet manifold. it can be seen working or not if the aircleaner is removed

 

[VicS]

The problem with extended cranking as far as the cooling water aspect is concerned is that all the while the engine is being turned water is being pumped through the cooling system or heat exchanger into the exhaust system. Eventually so much water could be pumped in that it floods back into the engine!
When the engine is running the exhaust gasses blow the water out of the system.

For the above reason it is sometimes recommended that the seacock is shut until the engine fires. This is particularly relevant of course if the engine is cranked during maintenance while deliberately prevented from starting.

Cranking with the seacock shut then introduces the risk to the water pump of impeller damage due to being run dry. Probably it is no problem if it is wet as the water present will lubricate it for a short time until the seacock is opened.

The speed seal is merely a modification to the pump cover that enables easy impeller changing.

 

[Stork_III]

The problem with extended cranking as far as the cooling water aspect is concerned is that all the while the engine is being turned water is being pumped through the cooling system or heat exchanger into the exhaust system. Eventually so much water could be pumped in that it floods back into the engine!
When the engine is running the exhaust gasses blow the water out of the system.

For the above reason it is sometimes recommended that the seacock is shut until the engine fires. This is particularly relevant of course if the engine is cranked during maintenance while deliberately prevented from starting.

Cranking with the seacock shut then introduces the risk to the water pump of impeller damage due to being run dry. Probably it is no problem if it is wet as the water present will lubricate it for a short time until the seacock is opened.

The speed seal is merely a modification to the pump cover that enables easy impeller changing.

The Speedseal "Life" version is said to allow significant dry running without damage.

 

[VicS]

The Speedseal "Life" version is said to allow significant dry running without damage.

If this is what the OP has then extended dry running up to 10 minutes without impeller damage is claimed.

I'd still worry about the wear occurring between the vane tips and the pump body and cam plate.

 

[CAPTAIN FANTASTIC]

If it takes 60 secs to start the engine, its too long, as it will drain the batteries and possibly damage the starter motor.

If the engine has low compression, perhaps due to its age since last overhaul, then ensure that the glow plugs / heater works well; otherwise, a tiny amount of spray with "easy start" will help a lot as it will ignite at a lower temperature than diesel oil.

Some will argue that the engine will get used to "easy start" spray; that is not true; engines have no feelings!

 

[rotrax]

If it takes 60 secs to start the engine, its too long, as it will drain the batteries and possibly damage the starter motor.

If the engine has low compression, perhaps due to its age since last overhaul, then ensure that the glow plugs / heater works well; otherwise, a tiny amount of spray with "easy start" will help a lot as it will ignite at a lower temperature than diesel oil.

Some will argue that the engine will get used to "easy start" spray; that is not true; engines have no feelings!

Spot on! I have just failed to change the glow plugs on a Fiat Scudo van-they are siezed so tight that the first one's hexagon sheared off and just revolves.As I have had it some little while and I know it runs well and starts fine in the warm weather I have not compounded the problem by "flogging a dead 'un" and have left the others alone.Every day I give them a squirt of penatrating oil-perhaps I'll be successful in the warmer weather when the stuff has done its job. The sheared one is history now-I'll leave it as it is. While under the bonnet I drilled a 6mm hole in the air filter housing. A one second squirt of Ether based Easystart gets it going every time. Minus 5 here this morning-no trouble at all. Come spring it wont need the gubbins so back to normal. Its only used now and again so its no big deal. First Mate would not put up with it though!

 

[ghostlymoron]

4 cylinder Perkins engines are great motors BUT require a lot of heat for starting. My friend gives it 30 seconds and a bit 'for luck'. Once its going its as smooth as silk.

 

[dunmor]

ive got 1407s on my boat. the original engine start procedure is still attached to the bulkhead, it says to hold key over for 20 seconds, but i find in really cold weather it needs 40 seconds to open the waxstat fully. if you take the air filter off and look down inlet when engine first cranks you should see quite a large flame shooting down it. if not check heater plug getting hot, if it is check fuel supply to it, mine have their own fuel supplied from 2 little tins and a small pipe running to heat plug.

 

[fisherman]

I sold a Leyland truck to an engineer, it had always been a pig to start. He was delighted with it when I saw him later, I asked about starting problems. "You just weren't spinning it fast enough, put a bigger battery on it!"

I would not use easy start under any circs, better to apply a (lit) plumber's gas torch to the air intake.

 

[Colvic Watson]

Apologies for slight thread drift - any idea if the Thornycroft 230 has pre heaters or glow plugs? It was a freezing cold day on Saturday and it took about 30 seconds to start which is very unusual.

 

[Stu Jackson]

We installed a glow plug solenoid on our engine to reduce the length of wire that the power has to run through. Used to have to go all the way to the cockpit panel and back.

http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Faster,_More_Efficient_Glow_Plug_Heating_with_a_Solenoid

 

[pcatterall]

Thanks guys.
Yes it is the 'speed seal plus' which has the ceramic insert and claimed to give longer life. If they claim 10 minutes then I guess that 1min cranking will be safe.
I assumed the heater plug was working as I could see a whisp of smoke from the breather. I will check next time to see if there is a flame! the flame suprises me a bit I thiught it just warmed up and dewaxed the fuel.
I take the point about battery condition, the engine seems to crank at agood speed but past experience has taught me that the extra ummph from a tip top battery can make all the difference.
Thanks again

 

[Alpha22]

There is probably a little tank that should contain some diesel, you will have to fill it periodically. This dispenses a small amount of diesel into the inlet manifold where one heater plug ignites it. This warms the air int he manifold and the manifold a little enabling starting in the cold.
The tanks often rust and the diesel will drip out.

It sounds prehistoric and it is, but when it works it works well!!!

 

[rotrax]

I would not use easy start under any circs, better to apply a (lit) plumber's gas torch to the air intake.

Hi, Once in the Czech Republic in early December the tempreture dropped to minus 21c. To get our Fiat Uno diesel to start I had to make a flaming torch from a stick and rags,dip it in diesel, light it and allow the flames to be sucked down the open air intake. If I had had a plumbers blowlamp I would have used that. As a one second squirt of Easystart through my little hole works well enough for me I'll stick with it. I have been involved with engines of all types for over 45 years and have never heard of a problem caused by the use of any ether based starting fluid. Many myths and fairy stories abound about the damage that these aids to starting can cause. If ether based fluids were detrimental to internal combustion engines please explain to me how the tiny model two stroke semi diesel glow plug engines that model makers use get away with 20,000 rpm plus using ether and oil fuel mixtures.They often use overhung crankshafts and other poorly thought of design features that real engine designers would not consider. Some of the stories about engines "getting used to Easystart" is that they are on the verge of terminal failure anyway and get a little longer running time by the stuff allowing the poor worn out mechanisms to start at all. In my opinion,of course.

 

[l'escargot]

I've got a 4107. There should be a small tank dripping fuel onto the pre heater when you open a tap. In cold weather when the engine hasn't been started for a while, full throttle and give the pre heater 30 to 60 seconds and get some good whisps of smoke coming from the mushroom over the air intake. If it doesn't start the first couple of turns, give the pre heater even longer.

 

[SAMYL]

Hi, Once in the Czech Republic in early December the tempreture dropped to minus 21c. To get our Fiat Uno diesel to start I had to make a flaming torch from a stick and rags,dip it in diesel, light it and allow the flames to be sucked down the open air intake. If I had had a plumbers blowlamp I would have used that. As a one second squirt of Easystart through my little hole works well enough for me I'll stick with it. I have been involved with engines of all types for over 45 years and have never heard of a problem caused by the use of any ether based starting fluid. Many myths and fairy stories abound about the damage that these aids to starting can cause. If ether based fluids were detrimental to internal combustion engines please explain to me how the tiny model two stroke semi diesel glow plug engines that model makers use get away with 20,000 rpm plus using ether and oil fuel mixtures.They often use overhung crankshafts and other poorly thought of design features that real engine designers would not consider. Some of the stories about engines "getting used to Easystart" is that they are on the verge of terminal failure anyway and get a little longer running time by the stuff allowing the poor worn out mechanisms to start at all. In my opinion,of course.

+1

 

[Heckler]

If it takes 60 secs to start the engine, its too long, as it will drain the batteries and possibly damage the starter motor.

If the engine has low compression, perhaps due to its age since last overhaul, then ensure that the glow plugs / heater works well; otherwise, a tiny amount of spray with "easy start" will help a lot as it will ignite at a lower temperature than diesel oil.

Some will argue that the engine will get used to "easy start" spray; that is not true; engines have no feelings!

No they dont get addicted or have feelings! What does happen is that too much is used, the engines then fire too early, just like pinking in a petrol engine. The piston rings then get trapped by the ring lands being compressed by the forces from pre ignition. This gives more loss of compression and so it goes on. Stuff of last resort, if you have to use it the engine is shagged!
To Peter, as others have said, check the coil in the inlet manifold is heating up, also check that the fuel feed to the heater coil is working, this system relys on the heater vapourising fuel to make "gas" (Im assuming it is the later heatercoil/fuel system) A bit of useless info, thats where the term gas oil comes from, vaporise the gas oil to make "gas" that burns from the heat of compression.
Stu

 

[Heckler]

Hi, Once in the Czech Republic in early December the tempreture dropped to minus 21c. To get our Fiat Uno diesel to start I had to make a flaming torch from a stick and rags,dip it in diesel, light it and allow the flames to be sucked down the open air intake. If I had had a plumbers blowlamp I would have used that. As a one second squirt of Easystart through my little hole works well enough for me I'll stick with it. I have been involved with engines of all types for over 45 years and have never heard of a problem caused by the use of any ether based starting fluid. Many myths and fairy stories abound about the damage that these aids to starting can cause. If ether based fluids were detrimental to internal combustion engines please explain to me how the tiny model two stroke semi diesel glow plug engines that model makers use get away with 20,000 rpm plus using ether and oil fuel mixtures.They often use overhung crankshafts and other poorly thought of design features that real engine designers would not consider. Some of the stories about engines "getting used to Easystart" is that they are on the verge of terminal failure anyway and get a little longer running time by the stuff allowing the poor worn out mechanisms to start at all. In my opinion,of course.

See my other post about easy start, I have repaired countless diesels with the sort of damage that I describe. Model aero engines dont have piston rings to get damaged and the compression ratio is adjusted with the screw on the top of the cylinder, I suspect it isnt as hi as vehicule engines and the design is such that they can cope with the loads
.
Stu

 

[pcatterall]

No 'little supply tank' on this 4108. My last one had. I still don't understand how my 'warmed up' fuel becomes ignited as ( at that stage) it is not vapourised.