Charlestown harbour on the Forth to be cleared on June 22nd

[RunAgroundHard]

I spoke with the estate factors, based in Aberdeen, about identity of boat owners. They told me no plans were afoot, they simply wanted to stop further abandonment. SEPA were involved due to local people complaining of oil leaks from sunk/sinking boats. A chain was to be installed to prevent access into the main harbour. As to removing boats and developing the site: it’s a huge expensive can of worms that the estate don’t want to open. It is a fascinating harbour , with a long history. The curved walls to enable close drying of ships next to the railway is of interest. Supposedly a slab base to help cleaning of mud. The mud and surrounding land is contaminated from ship/sub breaking.

The chain is installed.

It’s not impossible to develop, and it may not even be as contaminated as is being suggested. However, a marina is likely the least attractive option, if return on investment is the driver. Inveraray community bought their pier, I think from the Duke, have renovated the stone part, and are saving up to renovate the wooden part. Sure, that’s not to the same scale. However, sometimes a twee asset, offers superior amenity and increased value to an area than just another housing development.

Anyway, this harbour is just one on many derelict sites in the Firth of Forth that suffers from asset hoarding and dereliction.

 

[ducked]

Making a set of enormous assumptions, the biggest problem in bring Charlestown Harbour back to life would be SEPA.
Where would you be allowed to dump all that potentially contaminated mud?
I know of several projects, where the mud had to go to landfill. The cost and environmental impact of all that trucking and dumping is high and effectively made the project a non starter.
It looks like an idea spot for people who want to potter about and day sail in a relatively small boat.
Don't underestimate the demand for small boat ownership, if the owners have local access to low cost berthing and a well run DIY yard.

Wouldnt think Charletown is very likely to be contaminated beyond a bit of antifouling residue, and I understand dredging spoil from Grangemouth gets dumped in the channel.

I dont know if the owners alleged preference for filling it in and building on it are accurately reported, but the nature of the housing developments at the West end of the harbour, and fhe apparently adversarial relationship with the boatowners seem consistent with that, rather than some mud, being the main obstacle to a satisfactory resolution.

 

[dgadee]

As well as the cost of dredging you have to pay for analysis of what is there, and pay for permissions. An expensive business unless the MoD are paying for it.

 

[dunedin]

You would be taking on quite a lot of potential liability if you bought it. Aren't Fifers supposed to be quite tight?

Joking aside, the boat moorings RunAground referred to on the Forth in that area are probably very low cost. Very few might be interested in moving to a shiny redeveloped harbour with pontoons if it is priced at full marina rates - as presumably would be required to fund major dredging, repairs and marina development.
Those prepared to pay marina fees tend to already have their boats on the Clyde or West coast, which frankly have much better sailing.
Indeed, I am one of the many people who live near the Forth but keep our boat on the Clyde.

 

[dgadee]

Joking aside, the boat moorings RunAground referred to on the Forth in that area are probably very low cost. Very few might be interested in moving to a shiny redeveloped harbour with pontoons if it is priced at full marina rates - as presumably would be required to fund major dredging, repairs and marina development.
Those prepared to pay marina fees tend to already have their boats on the Clyde or West coast, which frankly have much better sailing.
Indeed, I am one of the many people who live near the Forth but keep our boat on the Clyde.

You forget the Edinburgh Marina to be developed in Granton:

Edinburgh Marina - Waterside Development & Marina

One day perhaps (but I doubt in my lifetime).

 

[Minerva]

You forget the Edinburgh Marina to be developed in Granton:

Edinburgh Marina - Waterside Development & Marina

One day perhaps (but I doubt in my lifetime).

I doubt very much that will be built in my Sons’ lifetime. And he is only 3!

For some reason I can’t quite put my finger on, the advertising of the new “Marina” seems to coincide with the launch of a new housing development scheme on the site, but somehow, fades away once those new flats start to be sold. Can’t quite think why that could be.

 

[wallacebob]

Edinburgh Marina is well cancelled. Mix of social housing on the site now, the required retail outlets will not come. Most boats on the firth pay circa £150 annual swing mooring fee, or cheap drying in council/community harbours. A few pay more for Port Edgar. There is no market for a new marina. The new owners at Port Edgar have just committed funds for finishing pontoon refurb, and three year dredging programme. PE isn’t full.

 

[ylop]

Joking aside, the boat moorings RunAground referred to on the Forth in that area are probably very low cost. Very few might be interested in moving to a shiny redeveloped harbour with pontoons if it is priced at full marina rates

Definitely - you'd either be providing competition / options for Port Edgar customers or bringing new sailors to the area. I'm guessing a lot of those moorings are self/club maintained and the market for that in the "i'll give boating a try" customers is going to be limited.

- as presumably would be required to fund major dredging, repairs and marina development.
Those prepared to pay marina fees tend to already have their boats on the Clyde or West coast, which frankly have much better sailing.

Better sailing is somewhat subjective though. IF there was a network of small easily accessible harbours with pontoons where you could walk ashore to a pub/cafe/chippy then the Forth might not actually be too bad compared to the Clyde.

Indeed, I am one of the many people who live near the Forth but keep our boat on the Clyde.

As am I (well we started on the Clyde and then moved NW), I've done some boating on the Forth - its not all bad. But perhaps my entire choice of vessel would have been different if there had been more options for where to keep it or interesting cruising on my doorstep.

 

[dgadee]

Edinburgh Marina is well cancelled. Mix of social housing on the site now, the required retail outlets will not come. Most boats on the firth pay circa £150 annual swing mooring fee, or cheap drying in council/community harbours. A few pay more for Port Edgar. There is no market for a new marina. The new owners at Port Edgar have just committed funds for finishing pontoon refurb, and three year dredging programme. PE isn’t full.

And the western harbour totally empty.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

The harbour is listed so probably not much chance of it becoming a marina:

Charlestown Harbour, East Harbour Road, Charlestown | Buildings at Risk Register

Being listed is not a barrier. James Watt Dock in Greenock is a listed structure, along with the associated Sugar Sheds, but there's a very successful marina there. The only issue is that they can't install a boat hoist, because that would require unacceptable modification of the structure. So they are dependent on a mobile crane for lifting boats, and that can only operate when wind speeds are below some limit (20 kt, I think)

 

[awol]

One of the Forth's challenges is a tidal range reaching ~6m at springs. Not a lot when compared to, say, the over 12m of the Bristol Channel. That, SEPA's ban on dredging "contaminated" silt, and shallow water aren't encouraging for marina or harbour development.
I, like Dunedin, thole the miseries of Edinburgh but sail in the west, though I would not encourage anyone to join us.

 

[Mileholm]

Better sailing is somewhat subjective though. IF there was a network of small easily accessible harbours with pontoons where you could walk ashore to a pub/cafe/chippy then the Forth might not actually be too bad compared to the Clyde.

This 100%!

Being Edinburgh-based, when I looked at where to keep my first boat, I obviously considered Port Edgar, but when I realised there would be nowhere ashore to go to visit, I rejected it completely.

If Burntisland, Kirkcaldy, Bo’ness, Charlestown, etc, had deepwater harbours with pontoons accessible to day and overnight visitors and marina environments with pubs/restaurants, then the Forth would be far more attractive to boaters. But I get the investment might be £1m+ per harbour to create that.

In Scandinavia, central and local government spend money on marinas as they are seen as a public good and they are good for tourism and local businesses in small coastal communities. That’s obviously not the society model we have here.

 

[dgadee]

Being listed is not a barrier. James Watt Dock in Greenock is a listed structure, along with the associated Sugar Sheds, but there's a very successful marina there. The only issue is that they can't install a boat hoist, because that would require unacceptable modification of the structure. So they are dependent on a mobile crane for lifting boats, and that can only operate when wind speeds are below some limit (20 kt, I think)

James Watt Dock might have been able to absorb costs brought on from listing but I doubt the same in the small mud filled harbours of the Forth.

 

[ylop]

James Watt Dock might have been able to absorb costs brought on from listing but I doubt the same in the small mud filled harbours of the Forth.

I think the difference is how planners at Inverclyde council saw that (“Oh yes someone is going to do something with the industrial space in a poor part of the region”) v’s how it might go down in sleepy rural Fife.

 

[ylop]

This 100%!

Being Edinburgh-based, when I looked at where to keep my first boat, I obviously considered Port Edgar, but when I realised they would be nowhere ashore to go to visit, I rejected it completely.

If Burntisland, Kirkcaldy, Bo’ness, Charlestown, etc, had deepwater harbours with pontoons accessible to day and overnight visitors and marina environments with pubs/restaurants, then the Forth would be far more attractive to boaters. But I get the investment might be £1m+ per harbour to create that.

In Scandinavia, central and local government spend money on marinas as they are seen as a public good and they are good for tourism and local businesses in small coastal communities. That’s obviously not the society model we have here.

There’s lots of small west coast villages which have managed to find funding for a small pontoon and moorings. You don’t need to build another port Edgar to start to see shoots of growth.

 

[dgadee]

These don't look like the kind of houses where owners would welcome development of the harbour:


I presume they are the ones complaining to SEPA.

 

[Mileholm]

There’s lots of small west coast villages which have managed to find funding for a small pontoon and moorings. You don’t need to build another port Edgar to start to see shoots of growth.

Fair. 20-40 home berths (or whatever the demand would be) and 10 visitor berths in 4-5 harbours would be plenty in the short term.

But maybe the silt/mud in the Forth simply makes this unviable given the costs and likely income.

 

[Mileholm]

These don't look like the kind of houses where owners would welcome development of the harbour:

View attachment 201617
I presume they are the ones complaining to SEPA.

If I lived at the waterfront in a town like that, I’d love the increased life that a small marina environment would provide.

 

[NormanS]

This 100%!

Being Edinburgh-based, when I looked at where to keep my first boat, I obviously considered Port Edgar, but when I realised there would be nowhere ashore to go to visit, I rejected it completely.

If Burntisland, Kirkcaldy, Bo’ness, Charlestown, etc, had deepwater harbours with pontoons accessible to day and overnight visitors and marina environments with pubs/restaurants, then the Forth would be far more attractive to boaters. But I get the investment might be £1m+ per harbour to create that.

In Scandinavia, central and local government spend money on marinas as they are seen as a public good and they are good for tourism and local businesses in small coastal communities. That’s obviously not the society model we have here.

Burntisland already has all-tide access and pontoon berths.

 

[ylop]

If I lived at the waterfront in a town like that, I’d love the increased life that a small marina environment would provide.

but if you had chosen to live in a waterfront village (these are not towns) like that overlooking a quiet mostly disused harbour you might be less enthused about increased noise, parking, people. Presumably people who want a bustling environment don't choose to live there.