Ubergeekian
Well-Known Member
Oh great, so now the OP is being asked to pay for the tradesman's ineptness.
charged for carpenters blades
- Thread starter icepatrol
- Start date
Oh great, so now the OP is being asked to pay for the tradesman's ineptness.
Madhatter
Well-Known Member
With due respect ,
you have obviously never tried doing one then ! it has nothing to do with ineptness.
Anyway I have no intention of entering into any sort of argument on the subject and after 40 years using power tools professionally I was just offering my opinion and the fact that arguing over such a petty amount is just not worth it.
Good night all .
xtiffer
Well-Known Member
Have to agree. If people are so knowledgeable and competent why don't they do the job themselves.
If you are not happy with the job then don't use that tradesman again and pass on your opinion.
Normally these sort of situations arise from confusion of terms;
either get it in writing or trust your craftsman. What you put out out comes back to you.
Cheers,
Chris
If you are not happy with the job then don't use that tradesman again and pass on your opinion.
Normally these sort of situations arise from confusion of terms;
either get it in writing or trust your craftsman. What you put out out comes back to you.
Cheers,
Chris
Last edited:
icepatrol
Well-Known Member
those blades
thanks for all ur input guys.
just a couple of points here.
maybe i am a littel old fashioned on this but if i did a job say, using my drill bits i wouldnt dream of charging a customer simply because i consider them my tools. but point taken about cost of equipment.
but does this mean that the postmans wiper blades on his van are cgargeable to me ? lol.
the blades issue was a small point in a much larger dispute over charges. yes it was petty but there are bigger issues we are in the process of discussing with the marina on.
thanks again..
thanks for all ur input guys.
just a couple of points here.
maybe i am a littel old fashioned on this but if i did a job say, using my drill bits i wouldnt dream of charging a customer simply because i consider them my tools. but point taken about cost of equipment.
but does this mean that the postmans wiper blades on his van are cgargeable to me ? lol.
the blades issue was a small point in a much larger dispute over charges. yes it was petty but there are bigger issues we are in the process of discussing with the marina on.
thanks again..
Lakesailor
Well-Known Member
Oh Jesus! Of course it does. It's a business and absolutely everything involved in running the business is paid for by the customer.
Tradesmen are not doing it as a hobby.
People on here complain endlessly because they always think they are being ripped off.
It makes me wonder how many people actually have to earn their own living.
Either do the job yourself, or smile and pay up.
Ubergeekian
Well-Known Member
It's charging for what is, as you say, a petty amount that puzzles me.
Ubergeekian
Well-Known Member
Of course. But minor consumable items - electricity costs, jigsaw blades, tool depreciation, laundry - should be incorporated into the basic price and not charged as extras.
When you go to a restaurant, do you expect to be charged separately for cutlery cleaning, table cloth laundry and the flowers on the table?
maxi77
Well-Known Member
Although I do a fair bit of work at home and on the boat but I do use tradesmen as I see fit. Not one has charged me for tools or consumables, just a fixed price for the job. For example I paid a good carpenter to make some mods to the saloon table, no extras for saw blades, though it did need cutting, replacement screws were also not charged as extras though I know some were used, nor was there an extra charge for the two coats of varnish or the brushes.
Anthony
Well-Known Member
No, becuase they charge a fixed price for a given item that they sell multiple times, the price of which has been calculated to cover all their costs + profit.
If the carptenter had a fixed price for cutting a standard sized hole that was repeated again and again to different customers then the cost of blades would be built into the fixed price, but its wasn't
Therefore it cannot be compared to a bespoke job on a time and materials basis.
Ants
Quandary
Well-Known Member
It comes down to two separate approaches, one broadly supported by those who have run a service business recently, that you charge each customer as accurately as possible for each job and the other view that you lump everything into an inflated 'hourly rate'. The latter is actually probably most profitable but I would have more respect for a company that takes the trouble to itemise consumables and charge them to the job on which they are actually used.
The legal profession don't usually charge consumables (though they stick the arm in for printing) instead they charge an hourly rate of at least £150. Perhaps UberG. is a barrister?
The legal profession don't usually charge consumables (though they stick the arm in for printing) instead they charge an hourly rate of at least £150. Perhaps UberG. is a barrister?
maxi77
Well-Known Member
The problem is that the overhead for accounting for the minutae is higher than the cost of said minutae, leading to inflated costs for the customer.
There is a need for a sensible balance to be taken between absolute accuacy and value for money. Absolute accuracy is very costly, and adds no value to the job done
Jaytac
N/A
I can understand why you are annoyed - it's the total, not exactly how they got there.
I dunno if this came up after you asked for a full breakdown of the charges? I am guessing that the firm (unless a 1 man band) does need to keep a formal track of consumables to both re-order and to keep a hold on costs / know what to price at...........and somehow these have to be recouped from the customer. Might just be that for this job the blades had already worn out. Hence the charge. But the drill bits etc used hadn't, so you weren't. (or the practice is that every job gets charged for something).
But thinking about this again, I would only expect items to be listed on my bill if I ended up with them. So no blades for me = not listed (down to the firm to include in the hourly rate / fixed price). But if I was happy with the overall bill then I would not care how they got there. Blades charged or not!...........as on boats it is usually the labour that is the f#cker
and often more accurate than not..........preparation / thinking / fannying around all costs.
D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
The Detail Should Be In The Estimate, Not The Invoice
Indeed which is why costing to a set of norms is more efficient for example per foot of cut 0.02 pence. This rate could be an all up cost or ex labour. I understand norms are available for most trades but unitised in time and not money. I have experienced this with builders who planned costs for new build houses based on norms and have experience of a Norm Book when pricing a major project.
One advantage of detail is that it allows the tradesman to be competitive because he / she knows exactly what can be cut from an estimate.
With regards to Quandaries last point charging in detail is not always appreciated. Having a properly estimated job with a detailed scope of work and price is appreciated, that way you know what you are paying for and can enter into a discussion if scope of work expands for whatever reason. To be presented with a detailed list at the end of the job, explaining why the cost is more than estimated is pretty unprofessional in my opinion. Detail in the scope of work yes, but not necessary in the invoice.
It is entirely reasonable to have uncertainties listed in the quote as possible scope growth if the job warrants that i.e. Underpinning foundations springs to mind, building a locker into a yacht doesn't spring to mind.
Indeed which is why costing to a set of norms is more efficient for example per foot of cut 0.02 pence. This rate could be an all up cost or ex labour. I understand norms are available for most trades but unitised in time and not money. I have experienced this with builders who planned costs for new build houses based on norms and have experience of a Norm Book when pricing a major project.
One advantage of detail is that it allows the tradesman to be competitive because he / she knows exactly what can be cut from an estimate.
With regards to Quandaries last point charging in detail is not always appreciated. Having a properly estimated job with a detailed scope of work and price is appreciated, that way you know what you are paying for and can enter into a discussion if scope of work expands for whatever reason. To be presented with a detailed list at the end of the job, explaining why the cost is more than estimated is pretty unprofessional in my opinion. Detail in the scope of work yes, but not necessary in the invoice.
It is entirely reasonable to have uncertainties listed in the quote as possible scope growth if the job warrants that i.e. Underpinning foundations springs to mind, building a locker into a yacht doesn't spring to mind.
Ubergeekian
Well-Known Member
No, I just like arguing!
'Zactly. I'd expect the normal charge for any job, whether that was per hour or per item, to include the minor running costs of a business. Of course if there was a very much higher than usual need for some consumable on a particular job I'd expect it to be charged separately - and justified. When I had the pit put on my garage the builder doing it hit a reef of whinstone two feet down and I considered it entirely fair that I then paid for the hire of a breaker needed to finish the job.
Madhatter
Well-Known Member
" STRUTH !! "
oldsaltoz
Well-Known Member
So if you were the trades person and had 5 petty items a day making 25 petty items a week, you would not charge.
Get real............
D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
Oldsaltz I dont think that is the point that's being made. The consumption of items like this would be better amortised over time (jobs) rather than just one job. If it is consumed on one job then its hidden in the rate as its not worth itemising separately.
No one is saying that "petty" items should not be charged. As a consumer I much prefer the detail in the Estimate / Quote for the scope of work, not on the invoice material and consumable list. If I am presented with an invoice that exceeds the estimate I will question and refute. I am not interested in the number of jig saw blades the tradesman uses, only on why he quoted me a price for the job that has been exceeded. This is the nub of what we are debating here, because to quibble over 2 jigsaw blades is madness.
Before I get flamed, I understand that an estimate is an estimate. Maybe if tradesmen got real over their estimating and provided a quote for a scope of work, instead of hiding behind an itemised invoice, both parties would be in a win win situation.
No one is saying that "petty" items should not be charged. As a consumer I much prefer the detail in the Estimate / Quote for the scope of work, not on the invoice material and consumable list. If I am presented with an invoice that exceeds the estimate I will question and refute. I am not interested in the number of jig saw blades the tradesman uses, only on why he quoted me a price for the job that has been exceeded. This is the nub of what we are debating here, because to quibble over 2 jigsaw blades is madness.
Before I get flamed, I understand that an estimate is an estimate. Maybe if tradesmen got real over their estimating and provided a quote for a scope of work, instead of hiding behind an itemised invoice, both parties would be in a win win situation.
oldsaltoz
Well-Known Member
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Lets be
clear on this.
A Quote includes all costs and an itemised
description of the work to be performed and perhaps a methodology
statement.
The trades person will assume the worst case
scenarios to complete the work and the total will include all the
'possible' extra costs because he is doing the work to make a profit,
not including the above may mean a loss.
An estimate on the
other hand is for what the expects will be required, but does not
include any items he could not anticipate.
Any unexpected
extra work will be added to the estimate, so it's important for you
and the contractor to detail all 'expected' work and materials.
The
bottom line here is that a quote will have a much higher figure than
an estimate.
Also keep in mind that many estimates will be
over the original amount, but some less than original figure.
Jobs
based on time and materials are a trades persons dream, no rush, no
materials costs that won't be recovered.
A good example of the
above options would be:
SHMBO tells you it's time to do up the
old bathroom because it leaks a bit and too hard to clean.
The
trades person arrives to look at the job, all he has to do is strip
and put new tiles on.
The cost of stripping and re laying the
tiles on walls and floors is simple enough, the cost of the tiles
will be down to you, simple.
But the backing sheets have been
damp and fall apart when removing the tiles, the sheet/s will have to
replaced.
The timber frames holding the sheets have also
rotted in places and need replacing.
The slight leak turns out
to be in the bath outlet so it has to removed to repair it.
Not
so simple now.
A quote may well have contained all of the
above, all be it in sub sections.
An estimate may contain all
the above but you would only pay for the actual amounts incurred to
fix each area.
A time and materials would have cost less than
a quote but more than an estimate.
PS. I only ever provide an
estimate, with full details of work to be performed and materials to
be used.
I also add notes about things I might find during the
demolition that may require rectification along with further
estimates on costs based on lineal and/or square metres.
85%
of jobs completed end up less than original estimates but not my
much.
I hope this helps.
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Lets be
clear on this.
A Quote includes all costs and an itemised
description of the work to be performed and perhaps a methodology
statement.
The trades person will assume the worst case
scenarios to complete the work and the total will include all the
'possible' extra costs because he is doing the work to make a profit,
not including the above may mean a loss.
An estimate on the
other hand is for what the expects will be required, but does not
include any items he could not anticipate.
Any unexpected
extra work will be added to the estimate, so it's important for you
and the contractor to detail all 'expected' work and materials.
The
bottom line here is that a quote will have a much higher figure than
an estimate.
Also keep in mind that many estimates will be
over the original amount, but some less than original figure.
Jobs
based on time and materials are a trades persons dream, no rush, no
materials costs that won't be recovered.
A good example of the
above options would be:
SHMBO tells you it's time to do up the
old bathroom because it leaks a bit and too hard to clean.
The
trades person arrives to look at the job, all he has to do is strip
and put new tiles on.
The cost of stripping and re laying the
tiles on walls and floors is simple enough, the cost of the tiles
will be down to you, simple.
But the backing sheets have been
damp and fall apart when removing the tiles, the sheet/s will have to
replaced.
The timber frames holding the sheets have also
rotted in places and need replacing.
The slight leak turns out
to be in the bath outlet so it has to removed to repair it.
Not
so simple now.
A quote may well have contained all of the
above, all be it in sub sections.
An estimate may contain all
the above but you would only pay for the actual amounts incurred to
fix each area.
A time and materials would have cost less than
a quote but more than an estimate.
PS. I only ever provide an
estimate, with full details of work to be performed and materials to
be used.
I also add notes about things I might find during the
demolition that may require rectification along with further
estimates on costs based on lineal and/or square metres.
85%
of jobs completed end up less than original estimates but not my
much.
I hope this helps.
Ubergeekian
Well-Known Member
No, I would include them in the prices I quoted. Much simpler. And could we try to keep this a little more civil, please?
Madhatter
Well-Known Member
In the present climate only a fool would give a fixed quote as building/raw materials have gone up nearly 20-25% this year.
And with due respect "get real" this is said in the most civil manner I can muster
