Centre cockpit or not?

[boatmike]

Having sailed most things in my 75 years, my last boat was a catamaran which SWMBO loved. Then we thought to potter down the canals of France so we moved to power. While it has its advantages its not really us and we are now considering a fairly standard production boat of between 36 and 40 ft. She needs to be comfortable, easily handled by a 75 year old and SWMBO and the accent will be on seakeeping rather than speed. There are a LOT of AWBs out there at under £100K to look at but at the show SWMBO looked at Halberg Rassey, Najad and others with a centre cockpit and drooled over the aft owners cabin. I in turn looked at Bavarias and was pleasantly surprised at the value for money. For 100K you get a much newer boat second hand and while the HR and Naj have undoubted "Bentley of the sea" appeal, second hand for under £100K you get a much older boat. There is also a Bav38CC model (or was) that has a massive aft cabin. My question is this. Looking at motion at sea, the higher you are the more motion you get.... Is the downside of a centre cockpit that motion in a bit of a sea might be more sick making than a conventional aft cockpit? Is this perhaps why there are less of them about? Would any owners with experience of both care to comment?

 

[johnalison]

My experience of centre cockpits is a bit limited, but the motion can be an issue with some designs. Some, such as the HRs, especially the 1990-00s generation are very moderate and the cockpit is quite snug. I have a friend with a large Island Packet whose cockpit is at some altitude. I have sailed on it occasionally and find the motion unsettling at times, so I would say, have a look at the design overall, and you should be able to judge what it would be like at sea.

 

[dunedin]

Worth checking how easy to move around - and in particular access in and out of cabin from cockpit.
Does vary, but some cente cockpits result in steep and long steps down to cabin, which may or may not suit future mobility needs. Stern cockpit (plus lowering stern) can involv less steps.

 

[GrahamM376]

Is the downside of a centre cockpit that motion in a bit of a sea might be more sick making than a conventional aft cockpit? Is this perhaps why there are less of them about? Would any owners with experience of both care to comment?

Having had both aft and CC boats, our experience is that motion at sea is actually less with CC because the cockpit is nearer the centre of pitch. Very rare now for SWMBO to suffer from mal de mer which she used to regularly with aft cockpits. Possibly more limiting with reducing mobility due to age is the height of topsides to jump off when berthing. CC boats are often higher to accommodate walkway to aft cabin.

 

[pvb]

I had a centre cockpit HR352 for about 20 years. The motion was quite settled in the cockpit, which also wasn't too high. For singlehanding, I find a centre cockpit very convenient. The aft cabin was cosy, but had limited headroom. More importantly, the walkthrough to the aft cabin required some stooping. I now have a Bavaria Cruiser 37, and we use the forecabin as our "owner's cabin". Modern AWBs tend to have standing headroom throughout and are much easier to move around in.

For £100K, you'd be looking at fairly old Scandinavian boats, which would soon need some money spending on them.

 

[boatmike]

Some good thoughts there chaps. Thanks. Yes indeed you are nearer the centre of pitch so it might as you say compensate for being higher. Your point about gunwale height is also a fair point though Graham. Thanks. Interested that PVB has moved from 20 years with an HR to a Bav 37 Cruiser. Looked at a 37 at the show and was very impressed. Good price too but I always think you loose so much value in the first few years and getting a 2nd hand one that has been looked after with extras you don't get with a new one is favourite..... That drop down stern appears to be a recent thing though. Like all boats the design has evolved. Seen lots of 2005/2007 boats advertised and the only problem is that many appear to be ex charter 3 cabin layouts. Prefer the owners version with 2 cabins rather than 3. What year/version is yours PVB? Looking at it it is pretty beamy so should perhaps feel "stiffer" than the older HRs. Any comments would be useful as it is definitely one of the boats on our list..... Oh and do we think the shoal draft version is to be avoided or not??

 

[pvb]

Interested that PVB has moved from 20 years with an HR to a Bav 37 Cruiser. Looked at a 37 at the show and was very impressed. Good price too but I always think you loose so much value in the first few years and getting a 2nd hand one that has been looked after with extras you don't get with a new one is favourite..... That drop down stern appears to be a recent thing though. Like all boats the design has evolved. Seen lots of 2005/2007 boats advertised and the only problem is that many appear to be ex charter 3 cabin layouts. Prefer the owners version with 2 cabins rather than 3. What year/version is yours PVB? Looking at it it is pretty beamy so should perhaps feel "stiffer" than the older HRs. Any comments would be useful as it is definitely one of the boats on our list..... Oh and do we think the shoal draft version is to be avoided or not??

The only reason I sold my 24-year old HR was that I reckoned that within 2 or 3 years it would need the teak deck replacing (at a cost of £25-30K) so I sold it while it was still presentable.

My Cruiser 37 is a 2014 boat with the 2 cabin layout. I bought new because I wanted to have a few years boating without needing to do repairs or maintenance! I also specified the boat with fake teak in the cockpit and decks, so no maintenance issues there either. The boat is incredibly roomy inside, has a great galley and a spacious heads/shower. With the 2 cabin layout there's a cavernous cockpit locker too. She sails well and is effortless to handle.

 

[boatmike]

So does that make her the new drop down stern plate or sugarscoop? When did that change take place? Oh and I heartily agree about teak decking. Very pretty when new but a bloody horrible problem when older.... Did you ever research the difference in pointing ability with the shoal keel?

 

[tcm]

Having sailed most things in my 75 years, my last boat was a catamaran which SWMBO loved. Then we thought to potter down the canals of France so we moved to power. While it has its advantages its not really us and we are now considering a fairly standard production boat of between 36 and 40 ft. She needs to be comfortable, easily handled by a 75 year old and SWMBO and the accent will be on seakeeping rather than speed. There are a LOT of AWBs out there at under £100K to look at but at the show SWMBO looked at Halberg Rassey, Najad and others with a centre cockpit and drooled over the aft owners cabin. I in turn looked at Bavarias and was pleasantly surprised at the value for money. For 100K you get a much newer boat second hand and while the HR and Naj have undoubted "Bentley of the sea" appeal, second hand for under £100K you get a much older boat. There is also a Bav38CC model (or was) that has a massive aft cabin. My question is this. Looking at motion at sea, the higher you are the more motion you get.... Is the downside of a centre cockpit that motion in a bit of a sea might be more sick making than a conventional aft cockpit? Is this perhaps why there are less of them about? Would any owners with experience of both care to comment?

Hum, i think the difference is a bit marginal really. I think much more important will be how you plan to use the thing - med, uk, loads of sailing or not so much etc etc. Centre cockpit simply sacrifices cockpit space for luxy aft cabin. Best thing will be to ask around here and do lots of research and THEN buy the ones she likes, of course

 

[Tranona]

I echo pvb's comments re the latest Bavarias having bought a new 33 in 2015 replacing an earlier 37. This was a 3 cabin version (which was originally bought for charter) and we found the extra cabin very useful for storage. The downside of many 3 cabin boats under 37' or so is the heads compartment and/or galley is squeezed to make room for it. Over that size it is usually possible to get a decent heads, although some designs then try to squeeze in 2 heads.

The palatial aft cabins were always the big draw of centre cockpit boats in the short period they were popular, but virtually none are built now, partly because today's more beamy boats allow more space and partly the dominance of the Med market where aft cockpit boats are far more practical. Prior to buying our own boat in the Med we chartered a Moody 37 which was a lovely boat for living on, but poor in that environment - small congested cockpit, awkward to moor stern to and very hot and stuffy down below. From an access point of view, many of the smaller CC boats have steep steps down and insufficient headroom in the walkway aft. Saloons are pushed forward and forecabins can be cramped because they are so far forward in the pointy end. Getting in and out of the cockpit can be awkward, particularly once you have a bimini and deck space can be limited. However, much of this changes once you get over 40' where the extra length starts to pay off - although an Oyster 435 I was on recently was a real hobbit boat, both down below and in the cockpit. Did have a good foredeck and aft deck, though!

At your £100k and under price there are lots of centre cockpit boats - many well under, but most are 30-40 years old. Probably the best are the late 1990' early 2000s Moodys and particularly the Bavaria 38 and 40 Ocean. These are much lighter and more airy than earlier boats, but are still 20 years old so likely to need work.

On the other hand that money will buy a late model Bavaria 36/37, Hanse 371, Jeanneau 37 or 39 etc, most of which in the UK will be 2 cabin. However the number on the market is relatively small, reflecting the lower level of sales in the period when they were new.

 

[pvb]

So does that make her the new drop down stern plate or sugarscoop? When did that change take place? Oh and I heartily agree about teak decking. Very pretty when new but a bloody horrible problem when older.... Did you ever research the difference in pointing ability with the shoal keel?

The big drop-down bathing platform was introduced in, I think, 2011 on the Cruiser 36 - this was the boat with the incredibly ugly rectangular "gun port" windows in the coachroof. When the 36 was replaced in, I think, 2013 by the Cruiser 37 with the rather prettier superstructure, the Farr hull with drop-down bathing platform was retained. Mine is a 2014 boat with the big platform.

Before ordering, I asked about the shoal keel version and was told that the GZ curve is 2 degrees less but still sits well within the safety requirements for a RCD Cat A. Apparently it's necessary to reef the sails earlier to achieve the same heel and leeway and to maintain boat speed. Pointing would also be a few degrees less. The shoal keel is only a foot shallower, so I didn't think it was worth having.

 

[Tranona]

The drop down platform appeared on a number of earlier J&J designed Bavarias, including the earlier Vision range. They were less successful than that on the Farr boats, particularly those with electric struts. The Farr design is much simpler and effective.

I have the shoal keel on my 33 (less limiting for sailing in Poole and will go through the French canals if you want) and I think you would only tell any difference in a side by side comparison. It is heavier than the standard keel and my information is the stability is the same. I also have in mast furling, but despite all this regularly sail at 33 degrees to the apparent wind and will carry full sail up to 20 knots. The other major difference with the Farr boats is the rig which is mainsail orientated with a 106% jib which makes it all so much easier to handle, but with the downside that it is poor downwind - about to buy a downwind sail.

 

[ex-Gladys]

Someone earlier mentioned "access", a friend has a Najad 380 (?) and the access issue for me is stepping out of the cockpit, because the passage below decks is so big. It's a big step (I'm 6'3") without much in the way of handholds, it also means the primary winch is quite a way outboard and so a bit of a stretch to winch.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Firstly I wouldn't never buy a new boat again ,
although most company will throw in some extra bits your still looking at putting in a good chunk of extra cash to get her to your standards.
The mift that if you get a new boat there be no maintenance for years to come isn't always the case .
Plus expect to lost a large part of your cash when you go to sell it .
In our case 60k in just 7 year , when you add all the extra stuff you have added to the boat .
A boat that's two or three years old would have had extra equipment added to it and it be at a price that would suit you better , plus if you go to sell it a couple of year down the line , you won't lost so much .

 

[capnsensible]

Ive got a centre cockpit Moody and an aft cockpit Jeanneau. There are small bits of plastic on the mighty seas and there is no discernable difference with the motion of the ocean. Wouldnt worry about that part of the decision, just go for the boat you both like, in my opinion.

:encouragement:

 

[pvb]

Firstly I wouldn't never buy a new boat again ,
although most company will throw in some extra bits your still looking at putting in a good chunk of extra cash to get her to your standards.
The mift that if you get a new boat there be no maintenance for years to come isn't always the case .
Plus expect to lost a large part of your cash when you go to sell it .

There's a deep satisfaction in taking delivery of a brand-new boat, built to your precise spec. In 3 years of owning my Bav, there's been minimal need for maintenance. Nothing's broken; nothing squeaks or creaks; nothing leaks. In contrast to my old boat, which always needed something repairing or replacing, it's a sheer joy. OK, initial depreciation is higher, but that's just the same as buying a new car.

 

[boatmike]

Well I agree with both of you! There is indeed deep joy to be had from a new car or boat if you have enough money not to be totally peed off with how much its worth 5 years later. Personally I am not rich enough that the initial joy would overcome the loss of all that money! Also it is not inevitable that a 5 year old boat has been neglected and very often you buy loads of fitted extras and improvements with an older boat that you wont get straight from a yard.. In fact I often say that the boats I have owned have improved in my ownership. I certainly know the guy who buys my Aquastar will get a bargain. Engines reconditioned, new turbos, new gearboxes, new generator, air con, watermaker, copperbottom...... But I won't get that back when I sell it! But then you have to know what you are looking at and sadly many older boats die of neglect.......

 

[Tranona]

Well I agree with both of you! There is indeed deep joy to be had from a new car or boat if you have enough money not to be totally peed off with how much its worth 5 years later. Personally I am not rich enough that the initial joy would overcome the loss of all that money! Also it is not inevitable that a 5 year old boat has been neglected and very often you buy loads of fitted extras and improvements with an older boat that you wont get straight from a yard.. In fact I often say that the boats I have owned have improved in my ownership. I certainly know the guy who buys my Aquastar will get a bargain. Engines reconditioned, new turbos, new gearboxes, new generator, air con, watermaker, copperbottom...... But I won't get that back when I sell it! But then you have to know what you are looking at and sadly many older boats die of neglect.......

That is exactly the problem. It is the money you spend on getting and keeping the boat up to your standard that you "lose" when you sell. Whether you start with a new boat or a used one is irrelevant. What leads me to new (for both cars and boats) is a long time horizon - greater than 10 years and keeping on top of maintenance. The problem with even a 5 year old boat is that you are halfway through the life of many of the components and there is likely to be a list of "essential" upgrades when you buy. I once did a comparison on here with another member who bought a 10 year old "quality" boat of same size at the same time as I bought a new AWB. over the 12 years to the time I sold mine there was very little difference in overall cost, just that mine was more capital depreciation whereas his was more maintenance and replacements.

Costs over time follow the "reducing balance" profile used by many accountants. Steeper initial capital loss and minimal maintenance followed by slower depreciation and increasing maintenance costs. Crossover is probably about 8-10 years from new. So if you buy a used boat your experience starts with additional capital expenditure fixing the bodges and things starting to wear out plus additional gear to meet your requirements - all of which has near zero value as soon as you spend it - if you sell.

Of course you need to have the capital to buy a new boat in the first place, but not only does it buy you YOUR boat, but it delays any significant future expenditure for several years and you only get the balance of the loss when you sell. In the meantime you have had your years of pleasure that is difficult to value in money terms.

 

[Moonbeam]

Are you ruling out a return to a catamaran? I ask as we are interested in a catamaran as our next boat. I can see you might not want to go back to a Prout (your previous catamaran?) but if, and it's a big if, you can find a Mahe 36 or Lagoon 380 for about £100k... might that not fit the bill?

A Mahe 36 here in the UK asking £120k

http://www.theyachtmarket.com/boats_for_sale/1388786/?searchid=14083324&page=1

 

[Yngmar]

Didn't we just have a thread about this? Oh yeah, here: http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?486550-Centre-cockpit-vs-aft-cockpit

Good candidates for budget CC liveaboard (= big aft cabin) boats on my list were the Moody 425 and the Bavaria 38 Ocean. I ended up with a 40 Ocean. They kept extending it a few feet every year, so there are 38/40/42 Oceans on the market before they cancelled the CC series.