CE Ratings

[johnalison]

Anyone who thinks this is suitable for use at sea or an improvement on what went before, should be sent below, off the Needles, to make bacon butties for 8 :




View attachment 122632

I don’t know where you dug that up from but my wife and I would be rolling around on the ‘floor’ with laughter if we stumbled into it at a boat show. Maybe an IKEA rug would improve it.

 

[Mudisox]

Kraken yachts and the thought process.

 

[Tranona]

Anyone who thinks this is suitable for use at sea or an improvement on what went before, should be sent below, off the Needles, to make bacon butties for 8 :




View attachment 122632

That is little to do with CE marking or the RCD categories, but the brief from the builder to the designer reflecting the requirements of the targeted buyer. That brief (nor the RCD) would have making bacon butties off the Needles as a requirement.

I expect if this forum had existed in 1979 there would be a similar post questioning whether Angus Primrose was mad to be thinking of crossing the Atlantic in his new Moody 33. The poster would probably have a Colin Archer or a Pilot boat as his frame of reference for what made a good offshore cruising boat. Despite that his design was the blueprint for the next 20 years or more for the Moodys, Westerlys etc that the OP had as his frame of reference when looking for a new boat. What we tend to forget is that during that period the world market was dominated by northern waters - in Europe the UK and Scandinavia and further west in northern USA/Canada and the centre cockpit, fin and skeg like Graham's 376 was a good compromise for local and offshore sailing so not surprising they dominated the market. It is interesting that Graham's surveyor in giving his opinion used the ballast ratio of 40% as justification for believing it would meet category A. Today (and for the last 20 years) you would struggle to find many boats in Cat A with that ballast ratio - even those that on the surface ape older designs.

The world market has moved to sailing areas dominated by light winds, long sailing season with stable weather and extensive shoreside infrastructure. Designs of boats reflect what is best for that sort of environment. Making bacon butties while rolling down the Needles channel has been replaced by barbecuing off the stern and serving antipasta and wine on the cockpit table that can seat 8 easily! This came home to me over 20 years ago when I started looking for a boat for our big adventure. Was pretty fixed on a 376 so chartered one for a week in the Med. A boat that is at home in the English channel in all weathers and makes a good long distance liveaboard made a lousy boat for liveaboard, or even holiday use in the Med. The Bavaria 42 we chartered the next year did, though. Interestingly a couple of sailing schools used that model 42 to go across the Atlantic with paying punters on the ARC and then sail back in time for the summer season in Greece. That generation of boats is still popular for liveaboards.

What is interesting today is that builders aiming their boats at the offshore cruising market offer a much wider variety of designs, few of which follow the model of 30 or 40 years ago. Look at Kraken, Rustler, Ovni, Allures, Amel, HR, Boreal, Pogo, Discovery, Oyster - the list goes on - and you don't find much commonality. Within production builders you find they often have models that do form a good basis for long term offshore sailing - Bavaria Vision, Jeanneau DS series as examples. The latest large Hanses and Bavarias are also popular aiming at boats like the Amel, but at little more than half the price. I suspect the driver for these changes in what is acceptable is to do with new buyers coming in who do not have the hangups of the past and assess the boats on offer against what they see as their requirements, not what was considered suitable 30 years ago.

Judging boats against requirements that were never in the brief is pointless, particularly if those requirements are different from yours. The buyers of the boat in the photo would not even bother to look at a Rustler even if it was the same price. Both are Category A, but that only means they meet the minimum requirements on stability and construction to cope with the conditions. The standard says nothing about other features of the boat that reflect how the boat is used. That is up to the designer, builder and customer. As we have seen that results in huge choice, indeed far more choice than there was 30 or 40 years ago.

 

[doug748]

That is little to do with CE marking or the RCD categories, but the brief from the builder to the designer reflecting the requirements of the targeted buyer. That brief (nor the RCD) would have making bacon butties off the Needles as a requirement.

I expect if this forum had existed in 1979 there would be a similar post questioning whether Angus Primrose was mad to be thinking of crossing the Atlantic in his new Moody 33. The poster would probably have a Colin Archer or a Pilot boat as his frame of reference for what made a good offshore cruising boat. Despite that his design was the blueprint for the next 20 years or more for the Moodys, Westerlys etc that the OP had as his frame of reference when looking for a new boat. What we tend to forget is that during that period the world market was dominated by northern waters - in Europe the UK and Scandinavia and further west in northern USA/Canada and the centre cockpit, fin and skeg like Graham's 376 was a good compromise for local and offshore sailing so not surprising they dominated the market. It is interesting that Graham's surveyor in giving his opinion used the ballast ratio of 40% as justification for believing it would meet category A. Today (and for the last 20 years) you would struggle to find many boats in Cat A with that ballast ratio - even those that on the surface ape older designs.

The world market has moved to sailing areas dominated by light winds, long sailing season with stable weather and extensive shoreside infrastructure. Designs of boats reflect what is best for that sort of environment. Making bacon butties while rolling down the Needles channel has been replaced by barbecuing off the stern and serving antipasta and wine on the cockpit table that can seat 8 easily! This came home to me over 20 years ago when I started looking for a boat for our big adventure. Was pretty fixed on a 376 so chartered one for a week in the Med. A boat that is at home in the English channel in all weathers and makes a good long distance liveaboard made a lousy boat for liveaboard, or even holiday use in the Med. The Bavaria 42 we chartered the next year did, though. Interestingly a couple of sailing schools used that model 42 to go across the Atlantic with paying punters on the ARC and then sail back in time for the summer season in Greece. That generation of boats is still popular for liveaboards.

What is interesting today is that builders aiming their boats at the offshore cruising market offer a much wider variety of designs, few of which follow the model of 30 or 40 years ago. Look at Kraken, Rustler, Ovni, Allures, Amel, HR, Boreal, Pogo, Discovery, Oyster - the list goes on - and you don't find much commonality. Within production builders you find they often have models that do form a good basis for long term offshore sailing - Bavaria Vision, Jeanneau DS series as examples. The latest large Hanses and Bavarias are also popular aiming at boats like the Amel, but at little more than half the price. I suspect the driver for these changes in what is acceptable is to do with new buyers coming in who do not have the hangups of the past and assess the boats on offer against what they see as their requirements, not what was considered suitable 30 years ago.

Judging boats against requirements that were never in the brief is pointless, particularly if those requirements are different from yours. The buyers of the boat in the photo would not even bother to look at a Rustler even if it was the same price. Both are Category A, but that only means they meet the minimum requirements on stability and construction to cope with the conditions. The standard says nothing about other features of the boat that reflect how the boat is used. That is up to the designer, builder and customer. As we have seen that results in huge choice, indeed far more choice than there was 30 or 40 years ago.

You have been mansplaining me for 15 years I think I deserve some sort of recognition for continuing to read it.

Like the bottle of ouzo brought back from the Aegean, Med charter yachts don't travel well, they look a bit sad in Northern rainy waters. A point you seem to be finally taking on board.
The photograph is an illustration of one of the OP's key points, that affordable mainstream design is moving away from an emphasis on actually sailing to living on a boat in a marina.
I (and hundreds of sailing folk better placed to comment than me) like to point out that this is not always a healthy thing.

Mrskystardean will, indeed, have to buy a more expensive boat probably secondhand if he want to sail offshore in comfort.

.......I expect if this forum had existed in 1979 there would be a similar post questioning whether Angus Primrose was mad to be thinking of crossing the Atlantic in his new Moody 33. ...........

Wonderfully inept point.

Angus Primrose was lost at sea, in the Atlantic, sailing his Moody 33.






.

 

[Tranona]

You have been mansplaining me for 15 years I think I deserve some sort of recognition for continuing to read it.

Like the bottle of ouzo brought back from the Aegean, Med charter yachts don't travel well, they look a bit sad in Northern rainy waters. A point you seem to be finally taking on board.
The photograph is an illustration of one of the OP's key points, that affordable mainstream design is moving away from an emphasis on actually sailing to living on a boat in a marina.
I (and hundreds of sailing folk better placed to comment than me) like to point out that this is not always a healthy thing.

Mrskystardean will, indeed, have to buy a more expensive boat probably secondhand if he want to sail offshore in comfort.


Wonderfully inept point.

Angus Primrose was lost at sea, in the Atlantic, sailing his Moody 33.
.

Well done for reading it. Was not directed specifically at you but at your illustration. Maybe you should read more closely as in the second paragraph I discovered exactly the point you are making over 20 years ago - but just the other way round and have been consistent about it ever since. It is also the case that some starting from a "med" perspective and boat seem to have little problem in adapting their boats for offshore cruising as you can see from the many youtubes of peoples' adventures. Boat design has always followed customers' requirements, just like any other consumer product. If there was demand for the type of boat that reflects the past at a price that buyers could afford, it would be built.

Well aware of what happened to Angus, but having been in his orbit at the time (via the Lionheart Americas Cup challenge) my comments reflect the reaction of many at the time.

 

[Graham376]

Was pretty fixed on a 376 so chartered one for a week in the Med. A boat that is at home in the English channel in all weathers and makes a good long distance liveaboard made a lousy boat for liveaboard, or even holiday use in the Med.

In your opinion but, others differ. We've spent the last 16 years living on board for the hottest parts of the year in Med type temperatures and it suits us (and others we know) fine.

 

[Mudisox]

I find it interesting that most folk love their own choice of boat, decry any other, and defend their choice.

A bit like partners,- we like what we have [or at least put up with them] for the circumstances that we experience.

 

[Graham376]

I find it interesting that most folk love their own choice of boat, decry any other, and defend their choice.

A bit like partners,- we like what we have [or at least put up with them] for the circumstances that we experience.

I don't know that's mostly the case particularly on your second point, I think we have more friends on second or third marriage than first

As far as boats are concerned, people buy what suits them for the purpose. In our case we like centre cockpit and a comfortable ride, others want to race around the cans and prefer aft cockpits. Tranona doesn't like my choice and I wouldn't want his boat but, nothing is wrong with either.