CE Ratings

[Mrstarskydean]

Went to the Southampton Boat Show and had a wonderful time. At some point we plan to sell the house and set off. We shall see. As boat owners in our modest 28ft/40 year old sailing yacht way we have made our first steps. So it was not a total fantasy for the wife & I to play 'if you had to have one, which sailing boat would it be?'

Perhaps I am a bit naive but I expected show staff to actually know their product - I don't mean specs to last detail, but just if the model in question is a sailing boat or not!

The prices made sense, new sailing yachts are never cheap. Ok I get that. But the real shocker was when I looked around inside. Some of the interiors were well thought-out and provided great choice. But at home we have a seventeen year old IKEA kitchen that is in better nick than these brand new yachts at £250k-£350k. I'm not talking about show-soiled boats, I mean the original quality of the materials.

Then I check out the CE ratings. Again I am (if you have not already guessed) no expert, but frankly I expected more. Category A CE seems to have somewhat modest requirements as a top slot - big expensive brand new sailing yachts. Just looking at the hull shapes (why does no one seem to talk about that any more?) does not inspire confidence. Perhaps this something I already know in my heart - after all there was only one boat at the show (made in Falmouth....) that I'd want to cross oceans in.

OK many modest yachts have crossed oceans, but I expected CE A rated £££££ 40ft+ yachts from big makers, to be better than they are. Are my expectations all wrong? As it stands new boats are off the shopping list.

 

[pvb]

The prices made sense, new sailing yachts are never cheap. Ok I get that. But the real shocker was when I looked around inside. Some of the interiors were well thought-out and provided great choice. But at home we have a seventeen year old IKEA kitchen that is in better nick than these brand new yachts at £250k-£350k. I'm not talking about show-soiled boats, I mean the original quality of the materials.

Modern production yachts are built to high standards, using a lot of CNC technology to produce high accuracy. Usually, the materials will be good quality marine ply, it's unlikely that your Ikea kitchen units used this.

Then I check out the CE ratings. Again I am (if you have not already guessed) no expert, but frankly I expected more. Category A CE seems to have somewhat modest requirements as a top slot - big expensive brand new sailing yachts. Just looking at the hull shapes (why does no one seem to talk about that any more?) does not inspire confidence. Perhaps this something I already know in my heart - after all there was only one boat at the show (made in Falmouth....) that I'd want to cross oceans in.

You need to be looking for a 40 year old Westerly or Moody, but I'm not sure that they'd have qualified for Category A.

 

[Mrstarskydean]

Modern production yachts are built to high standards, using a lot of CNC technology to produce high accuracy. Usually, the materials will be good quality marine ply, it's unlikely that your Ikea kitchen units used this.




You need to be looking for a 40 year old Westerly or Moody, but I'm not sure that they'd have qualified for Category A.

My IKEA doors are solid wood. There was very little of that on offer - or indeed marine ply. If I were to buy a £250k-£350k flat, I'd be making an offer that budgeted for a new kitchen if it had the quality of materials on offer in many of these yachts.
I can profess to be no expert but I've found that the more precise the engineering, and the more detailed the regulation - the more narrow the window of competence. A Westerly many not qualify for Ocean A but perhaps it will look after us.

 

[matt1]

Solid wood is very heavy & frankly unnecessary. Modern production boats are aimed at a market - I’d be surprised if they got more than 50 days use per year on average. Look after the the interior and it will last as long as you need it to. No point putting weight and cost into something that isn’t required

 

[pvb]

My IKEA doors are solid wood. There was very little of that on offer - or indeed marine ply. If I were to buy a £250k-£350k flat, I'd be making an offer that budgeted for a new kitchen if it had the quality of materials on offer in many of these yachts.

There's solid wood and good quality marine ply in my 2014 Bavaria. Plus high-durability worktops, decent stainless steel fittings, and attention to detail.

I can profess to be no expert but I've found that the more precise the engineering, and the more detailed the regulation - the more narrow the window of competence. A Westerly many not qualify for Ocean A but perhaps it will look after us.

You'd obviously be happier with a 40 year old MAB. As for "competence", I visited the Westerly factory a couple of times in the 1970s, and there wasn't much on show.

 

[Tranona]

You misunderstand the CE rating system. They lay down minimum levels, particularly in respect of stability to differentiate the expected usage. It says nothing about how this is achieved in terms of hull shape, ballast, type of rig etc. Modern boats may not have a shape that you are familiar with but as pvb says many older boats of the shape and type that some prefer often would not meet the minimum requirements for Cat A. Does not mean that one type is better than another, just different as one might expect after 40 or more years of intensive development and experience.

As to materials and quality of construction again things have moved on. Like pvb I have a 2015 Bavaria and the quality of materials and construction is way better even than my earlier Bavaria. However, I tend to agree in part that since then things have gone downhill in terms of style and finish as the market has moved away from more conservative northern buyers. I would not buy a new boat today, partly because there are virtually none made in the size I want and can afford and partly because the latest styles are not my cup of tea. This does not mean they are not well engineered and well made and many people will be very happy with them, including some who will use them for long term liveaboard and ocean voyages.

 

[Mrstarskydean]

Yes, I misunderstand, my expectations are wrong. Perhaps they would always have been wrong whatever era I'd be operating in. Looking at a friend's Bavaria, the quality can be seen, and the interior ages well. But I have my doubts if many mainstream yachts will age as well, time will tell.

I'm not a conservative buyer by choice. My limited experience has been spent on relatively modern hull shapes, simply because these are what my friends have and what I can afford. However the more I read, look and experience it seems the equations that define a boat can have different numbers in different places but the equation stays the same. Modern buyers are sold something and is all well and good, but the reason some old boats would fail Category A today is having port lights that open too close the waterline. The reason some modern boats get a rating is that there is a sticker on a deck hatch which says 'do not open at sea'.

I guess my disappointment boils down to having expectations that are wrong. I simply expected more. The engineering and design is all there but the focus is in making boats cheaper make and deliver. Boats in the US are typically more 'conservative' but then they generally do not get exported around the world, and so do not need a design made for shipping. So far I'm not convinced that the current crop of boats are an improvement, meeting different market demands with regards owner use and economics yes, different yes. But better?

 

[Bilgediver]

You seem to have a misunderstanding of the CE Category rating system and the purpose it serves. The ABCD categories are not awarded to reflect the standard of fittings etc but entirely as to what use the boat can safely put stability wise indicating where the boat can sail. category A suggests the boat is suitable for ocean passages whereas category D is inland waterways and rivers, with B and C relating to Coastal waters and Inshore waters. You could easily have a category B boat built to a higher standard than a category A boat but each only suitable for the waters their categories relate to.

 

[roblpm]

Went to the Southampton Boat Show and had a wonderful time. At some point we plan to sell the house and set off. We shall see. As boat owners in our modest 28ft/40 year old sailing yacht way we have made our first steps. So it was not a total fantasy for the wife & I to play 'if you had to have one, which sailing boat would it be?'

Perhaps I am a bit naive but I expected show staff to actually know their product - I don't mean specs to last detail, but just if the model in question is a sailing boat or not!

The prices made sense, new sailing yachts are never cheap. Ok I get that. But the real shocker was when I looked around inside. Some of the interiors were well thought-out and provided great choice. But at home we have a seventeen year old IKEA kitchen that is in better nick than these brand new yachts at £250k-£350k. I'm not talking about show-soiled boats, I mean the original quality of the materials.

Then I check out the CE ratings. Again I am (if you have not already guessed) no expert, but frankly I expected more. Category A CE seems to have somewhat modest requirements as a top slot - big expensive brand new sailing yachts. Just looking at the hull shapes (why does no one seem to talk about that any more?) does not inspire confidence. Perhaps this something I already know in my heart - after all there was only one boat at the show (made in Falmouth....) that I'd want to cross oceans in.

OK many modest yachts have crossed oceans, but I expected CE A rated £££££ 40ft+ yachts from big makers, to be better than they are. Are my expectations all wrong? As it stands new boats are off the shopping list.

Yes but don't worry. Soon we won't have to put up with those crap EU standards when we replace them with our own. I'm sure an A from the EU will only merit a D- on our new system...... And you will be able to choose from all the new British boats that are going to be manufactured in the sunlit uplands.

New post-Brexit rules for the sale of second hand boats - Yachting Monthly

 

[penfold]

You seem to have a misunderstanding of the CE Category rating system and the purpose it serves. The ABCD categories are not awarded to reflect the standard of fittings etc but entirely as to what use the boat can safely put stability wise indicating where the boat can sail. category A suggests the boat is suitable for ocean passages whereas category D is inland waterways and rivers, with B and C relating to Coastal waters and Inshore waters. You could easily have a category B boat built to a higher standard than a category A boat but each only suitable for the waters their categories relate to.

Quite, it makes no judgement to the quality of materials or fit-out; it's all about stability, watertight integrity, serial numbers, makers' plates, documentation, engine noise, etc. They wouldn't give a stuff if it was made from sterling board as long as it was strong enough for the purpose identified.

 

[Skylark]

You'd obviously be happier with a 40 year old MAB.

Spot on. I also think the OP should buy a MAB and sail into the sunset towards fantasy land. Fair winds to him ?

 

[Graham376]

You need to be looking for a 40 year old Westerly or Moody, but I'm not sure that they'd have qualified for Category A.

Funnily enough, we were shopping around for next boat in 2005 and, having looked at new affordable ones (Bav, Ben etc) on the market and not liking them, decided on a used Moody and spend the difference in price on refit. Would meet Cat A without a problem.

 

[Tranona]

Would do on stability but probably not on other aspects such as down flooding without mods. RCD is about more than stability. Most boats that were in production pre 1997 needed changes to meet RCD, some of them quite significant, others, for boats like the then current Moodys mostly detail. Many earlier IOR derived designs which became cruising boats have poor stability curves as measured by the standard required for the RCD. Not surprising given that the rule penalised stability!

 

[Deleted member 36384]

... Would meet Cat A without a problem.

I am not so sure. RCD Cat A covers many, many things such as QA of the moulded hull and materials, exhaust emissions, noise levels, never mind stability and design requirements to be approved by a recognised authority.

However, there is a big difference between RCD Cat A and your own boats capabilities to cross oceans. It's obvious that Moody and Westerly boats, for example, have done so safely and successfully. Even the environmental conditions for Cat A could be considered acceptable for your own yacht, but care is required to understand limitations.

However, do you know the stability category and design requirements reflected in actual loading weights and windage, for a self sufficient extended voyage, for you to sail safely or manage the boat safely in a F10 and associated waves? From the simple things like forward facing fore hatch hinges, to the more complex like down flooding angles and water tight bulkheads (so called collision bulkheads - the big fender locker on many Bavarias at the bow), would it meet RCD Cat A "without a problem"?

RCD A is partly about design and partly about standards for selling goods in the EU for the objective of providing an even market place. Many non RCD A boats sail across oceans

Category A – Ocean: covers largely self-sufficient boats designed for extended voyages with winds of over Beaufort Force 8 (over 40 knots), and significant wave heights above 13 feet, but excluding abnormal conditions such as hurricanes.

 

[Graham376]

I am not so sure. RCD Cat A covers many, many things such as QA of the moulded hull and materials, exhaust emissions, noise levels, never mind stability and design requirements to be approved by a recognised authority.

Not my words, an extract taken from survey report 7 years ago and insurers were quite happy to include Atlantic crossings, which we later cancelled -

376 is a cruising design from the board of Bill Dixon. She is of fin and skeg hull form and of moderate displacement, with a double spreader sloop rig. This has proved to be a popular class of yacht, and with her SA/D (sail area/displacement ratio) of 16.22 and an almost 40% ballast ratio is very suitable for blue water use. Although the design predates the RCD (Recreational Craft Directive) requirements she should properly be compared with designs in RCD Category ‘A’ Ocean.

 

[jwilson]

I too feel that RCD Class 'A' is wrongly labeled: most current Class 'A' production boats would have very substantial inverted stability. My own boat is one of them and I would not wish to take it further than I could be reasonably confident of a decent weather forecast. Certainly not too far north in the Atlantic or too far south round Good Hope or Horn.. I am a bit touchy about inverted stability for serious blue water sailing as I have been inside a 34 ft yacht that was inverted, I was standing on the headlining until it righted fast - it had a high ballast ratio. Perhaps there should be a Cat 'A-Star'' but hopefully buyers of boats intending to go far north or south do know enough about stability not ro rely on a little plate that says Cat 'A'.

I am not knocking modern production boats, they have many merits as coastal cruisers that are also capable of some long-distance passages. And the fact that average boat sizes have increased since the 1980s helps - bigger is definitely generally better in heavyish weather. When the Golden Globe Race was revived in 2018 with a 36 foot length limit there were 18 entries, all older designed long-keelers including Rustler 36s, Biscay 36s etc. Only five finished.

 

[westernman]

A better gauge of whether a boat is suitable for long offshore passages is whether it could get a MCA Cat 0 rating. This would allow you to take fare paying passengers if the crew are suitably qualified.

 

[jwilson]

A better gauge of whether a boat is suitable for long offshore passages is whether it could get a MCA Cat 0 rating. This would allow you to take fare paying passengers if the crew are suitably qualified.

Agreed - MCA Cat 0 is aproaching the gold standard for seaworthiness, but probably well over the top for non-commercial boats. Many seriously seaworthy boats that have successfully made southern ocean or far north passages would never qualify for Cat 0.

 

[doug748]

Anyone who thinks this is suitable for use at sea or an improvement on what went before, should be sent below, off the Needles, to make bacon butties for 8 :

 

[jwilson]

Feeding a large crew offshore in a seaway is not what it's built for. It could however be excellent for one or two couples in a marina or at anchor. And 99.9% of the time that is where it will be. I still don't like open linear galleys much though, you do have to cook or at least heat soup or brew tea/coffee occasionally on passage between marinas/anchorages.