Cat A ocean standard need full revision

[dunedin]

Well clearly the benchmark for A class is two boats - the Anderson 22 and Contessa 32. Everything else are just pretend boats.

on a more serious note, I can’t imagine removing and re-bonding windows every decade is any worse in the grand scheme of things than redoing the rubber gasket on sail drive or replacing standing rigging. All of which is “just in case”. It’s just another job on the routine maintenance plan.

Mmmmm. I suspect rebonding a set of large hull windows is a LOT more difficult than rigging replacement, and a saildrive seal (at least only one of these in a monohulll).
Getting them out without breaking will be difficult enough, if well fitted originally. Then if not broken needs very careful cleaning of both sides. Then very careful bonding, perhaps with pressure to secure when setting. Very much easier to do when building new in factory conditions, than outside in a cold and damp boatyard.

 

[geem]

Well clearly the benchmark for A class is two boats - the Anderson 22 and Contessa 32. Everything else are just pretend boats.

on a more serious note, I can’t imagine removing and re-bonding windows every decade is any worse in the grand scheme of things than redoing the rubber gasket on sail drive or replacing standing rigging. All of which is “just in case”. It’s just another job on the routine maintenance plan.

If you do some research, it isn't a periodic recommended replacement. It's based on visual inspection. How do you assess how much sheer strength the adhesive has lost? If the manufacturers just said remove and re- bed every 10 years and you will be fine, then I could understand it but they dont

 

[lustyd]

Which is why I suggested an A+ standard for those that actually do want a boat that can take serious weather. A standard that is credible and doesn't rate something as ocean when chances are they won't be crossing one. If you like, ocean could be the credible standard and the existing standard could be called something lesser.
There isn't a standard for boats that can deal with serious weather so how does a potential purchaser seperate those boats from the highest current standard that clearly isn't adequate?

My point is that ocean rated boats are engineered to be able to cross oceans. Your additional requirements aren’t necessary so what you seem to be describing is a hurricane rated boat. That would be a silly rating to define as it would encourage idiotic behaviour.

 

[lustyd]

If you do some research, it isn't a periodic recommended replacement. It's based on visual inspection. How do you assess how much sheer strength the adhesive has lost? If the manufacturers just said remove and re- bed every 10 years and you will be fine, then I could understand it but they dont

Boat manufacturers don’t specify any maintenance usually. The engine manufacturers tell you to change oil and filters, and the adhesive manufacturer gives their specs on lifespan. My Jeanneau manual doesn’t mention rigging replacement, am I therefore safe to assume it will never degrade?

 

[newtothis]

Well clearly the benchmark for A class is two boats - the Anderson 22 and Contessa 32. Everything else are just pretend boats.

Anderson 22 windows are held in by pride of place and sheer will power.

 

[lustyd]

Anderson 22 windows are held in by pride of place and sheer will power.

They have to be, at those speeds people could be sucked out of a failed window!!

 

[geem]

Boat manufacturers don’t specify any maintenance usually. The engine manufacturers tell you to change oil and filters, and the adhesive manufacturer gives their specs on lifespan. My Jeanneau manual doesn’t mention rigging replacement, am I therefore safe to assume it will never degrade?

Volvo recomend sail drive rubber replacement every 7 years.

 

[lustyd]

Volvo recomend sail drive rubber replacement every 7 years.

Indeed, but Volvo don’t manufacture boats. It’s assumed that boat owners will understand that maintenance needs doing and seek out recommendations

 

[justanothersailboat]

Indeed, but Volvo don’t manufacture boats. It’s assumed that boat owners will understand that maintenance needs doing and seek out recommendations

That sounds like a good principle to extend. Perhaps instead of farcical "minimum standards" we could abolish them all, sack everyone responsible and place all responsibility on the skipper to decide whether the vessel in the condition it was in was fit for the voyage they had in mind. This principle, when properly applied, worked brilliantly for at least 10,000 years.

 

[geem]

Indeed, but Volvo don’t manufacture boats. It’s assumed that boat owners will understand that maintenance needs doing and seek out recommendations

Why do two different manufacturers ( Oyster and Dufour) build hull windows to vastly different standards but both get the same highest
possible cat A certification for seaworthyness. The Oyster windows are recessed, structurally reinforced with external bars and mechanical fixed. The Dufour windows are flush and glued in. Why not simply recognise the higher standard with cat A+

 

[Concerto]

I have to agree with geem that bonded windows are disaster awaiting to happen due the the poor drafting of the Cat A ocean class. Having been brought up sailing before any regulations were created, it was a combination of the designer, the builder, the owner and racing authorities that decided how boats were built. The regulations only came in as factory manufacturing run by accountants started to build floating apartments for the charter market rather than yachts for sailing in all weathers. This might be a sweeping comment but excellent builders do work to higher standards than the minimum, the regulations allow brass seacocks rather than bronze to save a few pounds. How bonded windows were ever allowed is a strange decision.

Back in 2021 I raised this problem after chatting with the South of France agent for Fairline. Their biggest warranty problem was leaking bonded windows in newly delivered boats. In other words, the sealant had started breaking down before large amounts of hull flexing or UV damage.

 

[lustyd]

Because that’s the highest sensible standard to achieve. I don’t want bars on the windows while cruising, and I don’t want boats to fail ocean standards because the sail drive has a 7 year lifespan. I want the boat to be safe to cross an ocean if properly maintained. Which they all are.

 

[stav]

Think the whole CE is a contorted mess and should be scrapped. Perhaps understanding construction should be part of the rya courses? Because a couple sailing a boat need a different boat compared to a crew of six or ten. Perhaps a yacht brokers code is need to ensure they sell the correct boat to a person. (Like the couple of YouTubers who had a boat that broke when it was lifted out)! The broker who sold them that should be feeling bad (?)! Especially as it is more common for people to rush to be experts (Once had a lovely chap crew for me who was a yacht master after a few weeks of a course. Didn’t have a clue where to wedge a cup of tea at 3am in the morning and when it fell over I just went to my bunk.. The CE was a white wash to destroy the UK boating industry and having it is pointless when the situation is way more complicated. Just my 2p worth!! And didn’t want to sound as serious as it is written!!

 

[geem]

Because that’s the highest sensible standard to achieve. I don’t want bars on the windows while cruising, and I don’t want boats to fail ocean standards because the sail drive has a 7 year lifespan. I want the boat to be safe to cross an ocean if properly maintained. Which they all are.

You could have a higher standard but I suspect the production boat builders would not want their current cat A ocean standard diminished. It would impact on their marketing if they had to refer to their current ocean model as something lesser.

 

[geem]

Not sure why you think Oyster windows are done better. To my mind they have some of the biggest holes in the hulls, with triple very large windows. And not sure where the “prison bars” you refer to, as not seen on any recent Oyster. And they are apparently glued in.

They are mechanically retained not just glue

 

[billskip]

This is why I suggested that maybe there should be a cat A+ for boats that really will cross oceans on a regular basis.

I think the Titanic was cat A

 

[dunedin]

They are mechanically retained not just glue

Are you sure about how Oyster fit their windows. I don’t know, but search suggests that they use bonding in all models, but also use mechanical means on “many designs” and “especially older models”.

 

[geem]

Are you sure about how Oyster fit their windows. I don’t know, but search suggests that they use bonding in all models, but also use mechanical means on “many designs” and “especially older models”.

As I understand it, the prison windows use laminated glass and are installed with seals and mechanical frames.
I don't know about the latest pilothouse windows

 

[Tranona]

As ever this type of thread starts with one person's personal view that a "problem" exists - but fails from the start because their is no analysis of the relevant standard (ISO 12216 in this case) nor identifying where it is deficient, nor any empirical evidence of systemic failure of windows in the hulls of boats built to that standard. This is the standard iso.org/obp/ui/en/#iso:std:iso:12216:ed-2:v1:en - only the headings as you have to pay for the detail. Easy to see that all the areas that are criticised by the doubters (size, location, materials methods of fixing) are covered. Pretty sure a detailed reading will show that a lot of thought from designers and builders has gone into ensuring that such windows are "safe". Of course this does not mean they are foolproof. As you can see the standard was revised in 2020 (from 2001) and pretty clear that many of the revisions are directly related to size and security of windows in the hull sides.

As has been pointed out CAT A of the RCD is a minimum standard - and some would argue that it is far more rigorous than the general standards of design and construction before it was introduced. By the way it was NOT written for the benefit of French boat builders - most of it was written in the UK which at the time (early 1990s) was the big driver of harmonised standards.

From what I see the failing windows are largely a figment of fertile imaginations - I don't see media reports, coroners verdicts, official investigations.. large scale recalls, public outcries, campaigns for better windows and so on. Just the odd event where a failure occurs - just like there has always been on boats in heavy weather. The old style adventure accounts of ocean sailing in older boats is littered with windows failing (every boat should have storm boards!) and even whole cabin tops breaking loose.

As for CAT A+ - it already exists. Many builders exceed the standards and offer boats specifically designed for heavy weather sailing. That is because some buyers are prepared to pay for features that they believe are needed. Absolutely nothing new in this - there have always been builders of boats specifically aimed at this market. Just as today, though it did not stop those who could not afford such boats deciding to sail off in their modest production boat. Think of all those stories of the little Hurleys, Contessa 26s small Westerlys etc which have circumnavigated. No different to now when doing the same in 35-40' AWBs is commonplace. In my view there is no need for a written A+ if only for the reason that if you look at boats that are aimed at the top end they are so widely different in what their designers think make a heavy weather boat. Flat bottomed twin rudder drop keels, heavy metal expedition boats, super luxury yachts, multihulls and so on. Remember that the Categories are based primarily on wind speed and wave height. Most of the "criticism" is not about this but about features of design and construction, and subject to the minimum requirements of the underpinning standards, Designers and builder have a lot of freedom, as do buyers in making their choices. One would like to think that most buyers are intelligent people and quite capable of making their own informed decisions based on the products available to them. Works in most other consumer activities - why should it be so different in choosing boats?