Cat A ocean standard need full revision

[Jmacd]

1 day and 4 pages already who would have thought so many people would find reading construction standards so interesting. I thumbed through them a long time ago. Came to the conclusion "Ocean" meant a stiff breeze and a slight chop and pretty much any production boat. Including my own. Which was fine I had absolutely no intention of crossing any oceans. I bought it to putter about from pub to pub or restaurant in perhaps a stiff breeze or slight chop. It has guled on windows which drip. It's quite similar in design, size, construction and age to your average french bateaux blanc of the era. To compete in an "offshore race". One which ventured out on the ocean or the edge of it briefly. There were a bunch of things added.
Dead lights, or Covers for the windows in case one broke. or a couple of pieces of plywood.
Emergency steering, A board which could be strapped to a pole.
None of which I took particularly seriously. My boat was built 40ish years ago. For coastal club racing and cruising. A purpose it was reasonably fit for at the time. Crossing oceans? Not so much. Though I'm sure somebody has.
Still probably a bit heavier and stronger than more modern versions. Which are lighter, faster, longer WL, wider and more comfortable with lighter brighter interiors etc. Most designed for coastal cruising in nice weather and for charter.
So perhaps the title or description of the standard is a bit misleading.
Once upon a time, A UK boat builder Sadler used to market their boats as "Unsinkable". I even contemplated buying one. Unfortunately "unsinkable" clearly didn't sell well enough to compete with the french boats. Sadler long since out of business. A nice big airy owners cabin being more popular.
When I last went to a boat show, most if not all were big windows light comfy in the marina ect.
If you really want a boat to be "Ocean worthy". Look at the requirements to be "coded". Not so easy. again rather boring reading.
There is of course the unfortunate story of the Beneteau which capsized and sank returning from the ARC. Lots of reasons why. The boat really wasn't fit for the ocean crossing purpose. Still lots around ideal for my coastal cruising. Occasional club race ect.
Don't really follow the ARC. Its timed for reasonable weather. Even so you often hear of relatively nice modern boats which didn't quite make it.
So I guess it depends what you want to do with your boat.
For my budget I thought those "unsinkable" ones might have been an appropriate choice.

 

[potentillaCO32]

It didn’t take long to find the article. It seems to suggest that a proportion of those are simply hard groundings, and that proportion is unknown. And that a proportion of others are likely to be some time after a hard grounding. Hardly a design problem. How to mitigate that when buying second hand is an issue, for sure. Logically, I’d be tempted to suggest that once the keel is off, the remaining boat is less likely to sink. The crew are in no less peril, but the evidence will remain for a while. So I do not believe worrying about a keel falling off is logical if you know your boat’s history.

I think you are right. But i guess it can be difficult to know the history of a 5 year old plus boat.
In googling for the above I came across Kraken yachts, who are building 'safe' yachts for blue water cruisers. No keel bolts and i guess no glue in windows near the waterline
Interesting read here.

Just reading it again he has also gone for an AVS of 130 degrees which seems jolly sensible as well. And a genius design called the 'alpha rudder' which is a sort of skeg in front of the rudder protecting it, (one of the things that catches the ARC folk out)

Zero Keel - Kraken Yachts

 

[Lucky Duck]

The assurances that the keel cannot fall off seem to overlook Polina Star III

Experts examine Oyster Yacht that sank

Also the authors of that website seem to unaware post IOR low CoG/ballast bulbs on keels

 

[Blueboatman]

I can remember off hand three reports from these earstwhile forums of failing hull windows.

1.There was the RNLI rescue in the channel of a French charter boat with a popped forward hull window. Taking on water, very frightened crew.

2.There was the mobo thread by the bloke who hangs out exclusively now in the other place with his stress cracking side windows on a mobo-Mike F??

3.And there was a regular whose side window fell out in a marina berth in Falmouth. French boat , he subsequently sold it and bought a v nice moody.
Both the latter examples had pictures and all.

Then there are all the YouTube catamarans with large expanses of viewing windows , struggling with the engineering challenges of thermal expansion Vs integrity and water tightness ( and overly enthusiastic solar gain for cabin temperatures in tropical sunshine too).

You pays yer money and yer gets good enough until it isn’t , sometimes .

YBW is always looking for technical material from which to create an article for the magazine. Here you go!

In engineering terms it is pretty simple to secure a bonded window. But each additional element adds cost/time/complexity whether it be recesses, lips, secondary clamps or surrounds or indeed a giant recessed circlip type arrangement to mechanically lock a window in place- it works pretty well for bearings under load.
Etc etc
Plenty can be done if there is deemed a desire to.
Luckily it is not my problem and nor would I choose it to be. Ever.

And Lewmar seem to have figured out how to build a hatch pretty well to category whatever-prefix-you-like-to-give-it-on-paper.

 

[geem]

I can remember off hand three reports from these earstwhile forums of failing hull windows.

1.There was the RNLI rescue in the channel of a French charter boat with a popped forward hull window. Taking on water, very frightened crew.

2.There was the mobo thread by the bloke who hangs out exclusively now in the other place with his stress cracking side windows on a mobo-Mike F??

3.And there was a regular whose side window fell out in a marina berth in Falmouth. French boat , he subsequently sold it and bought a v nice moody.
Both the latter examples had pictures and all.

Then there are all the YouTube catamarans with large expanses of viewing windows , struggling with the engineering challenges of thermal expansion Vs integrity and water tightness ( and overly enthusiastic solar gain for cabin temperatures in tropical sunshine too).

You pays yer money and yer gets good enough until it isn’t , sometimes .

YBW is always looking for technical material from which to create an article for the magazine. Here you go!

In engineering terms it is pretty simple to secure a bonded window. But each additional element adds cost/time/complexity whether it be recesses, lips, secondary clamps or surrounds or indeed a giant recessed circlip type arrangement to lick a window in place- works pretty well for bearings under load.
Etc etc
Plenty can be done if there is deemed a desire to.
Luckily it is not my problem and nor would I choose it to be. Ever.

And Lewmar seem to have figured out how to build a hatch pretty well to category whatever-prefix-you-like-to-give-it-on-paper.

Exactly. For marketing purposes, these boats get an ocean class A category. Bloody ridiculous.

 

[dunedin]

The assurances that the keel cannot fall off seem to overlook Polina Star III

Experts examine Oyster Yacht that sank

Also the authors of that website seem to unaware post IOR low CoG/ballast bulbs on keels

Polina Star was a really shocking (and extremely unusual) incident that did Oyster’s reputation no good. The owner had reported worries about the keel and abandoned their planned voyage. Then capsized on the way back. Very fortunate nobody was killed.
Note that wasn’t a case of a “bolted on keel” failure - it was the GRP of the hull itself that failed.
But for very specific reasons and not exactly a common thing.

 

[Lucky Duck]

Note that wasn’t a case of a “bolted on keel” failure - it was the GRP of the hull itself that failed.

Indeed, the linked website asserted that the keel couldn’t fall off but in the case of the Polina it did just that.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Indeed, the linked website asserted that the keel couldn’t fall off but in the case of the Polina it did just that.

From memory it was down to poor GRP (or whatever material was used) lay up practises rather than the design itself. Also at that time there was no independent Certifying Authority used to verify build. I believe they now use both Lloyds or DNV to provide the independent design review and build assurance.

 

[Tranona]

I think you are right. But i guess it can be difficult to know the history of a 5 year old plus boat.
In googling for the above I came across Kraken yachts, who are building 'safe' yachts for blue water cruisers. No keel bolts and i guess no glue in windows near the waterline
Interesting read here.

Just reading it again he has also gone for an AVS of 130 degrees which seems jolly sensible as well. And a genius design called the 'alpha rudder' which is a sort of skeg in front of the rudder protecting it, (one of the things that catches the ARC folk out)

Zero Keel - Kraken Yachts

Nothing new in this. They are trying to sell their boat which has an encapsulated keel (and various other unique features), but they really are trying to solve a problem that does not exist. Almost all builders of expensive yachts used to use encapsulated ballast because it was an easy way to ballast old style long keel boats, but quickly abandoned it when it became clear that fin keels were more effective. The "problems" of bolted on keels are vastly over rated. As identified earlier the vast majority of the small number of reported incidents of keels becoming detached are either on racing boats or the result of grounding - often both. Nothing unusual about an AVS of 130 - but that is only one component of the stability requirements.

The existence of this boat confirms my point that there is nothing in the RCD that limits designers provided the boat meets the minimum standards. However such builders find it hard going to convince potential buyers that the features of their design are either necessary or justify the high cost.
Nog

 

[potentillaCO32]

From memory it was down to poor GRP (or whatever material was used) lay up practises rather than the design itself. Also at that time there was no independent Certifying Authority used to verify build. I believe they now use both Lloyds or DNV to provide the independent design review and build assurance.

I think the modern technique of bonding a grp structural grid onto a hull to take the loadings of keel and hull works very well normally. But.. it is very susceptible to a large shock load delaminating it from the hull in places causing a weakness and potential keel failing.
Expedition evans youtube did a fantastic piece onfixing their beneteau 50 that they bought cheapky due to this. Clearly made stronger than new.
I guess as chiara's slave suggests you want to be sure of the history of your boat.

If i were to choose a boat to sail to the azores i would love to go on a modern fast cruiser like a pogo 30 or sunfast 3600, with no qualms.

For my own boat i am coming round to the screwed in windows, encapsulated keel, skeg supported rudder, 130 degree AVS that Kraken yachts espouses.

Or maybe a trimaran as stable up or down. Maybe they could invent a way to invert the mast in the event of a flipover and you just carry on.

 

[Tranona]

I can remember off hand three reports from these earstwhile forums of failing hull windows.

1.There was the RNLI rescue in the channel of a French charter boat with a popped forward hull window. Taking on water, very frightened crew.

2.There was the mobo thread by the bloke who hangs out exclusively now in the other place with his stress cracking side windows on a mobo-Mike F??

3.And there was a regular whose side window fell out in a marina berth in Falmouth. French boat , he subsequently sold it and bought a v nice moody.
Both the latter examples had pictures and all.

Then there are all the YouTube catamarans with large expanses of viewing windows , struggling with the engineering challenges of thermal expansion Vs integrity and water tightness ( and overly enthusiastic solar gain for cabin temperatures in tropical sunshine too).

You pays yer money and yer gets good enough until it isn’t , sometimes .

YBW is always looking for technical material from which to create an article for the magazine. Here you go!

In engineering terms it is pretty simple to secure a bonded window. But each additional element adds cost/time/complexity whether it be recesses, lips, secondary clamps or surrounds or indeed a giant recessed circlip type arrangement to mechanically lock a window in place- it works pretty well for bearings under load.
Etc etc
Plenty can be done if there is deemed a desire to.
Luckily it is not my problem and nor would I choose it to be. Ever.

And Lewmar seem to have figured out how to build a hatch pretty well to category whatever-prefix-you-like-to-give-it-on-paper.

Pretty thin "evidence" that there is a systematic problem with hull windows popping out while sailing "bluewater" - which is the OPs claim.

Have you studied ISO 12216 in detail so that you know exactly what the standard requires? I have not, but can be pretty certain that the authors know more about the subject than anybody on this forum, that the designers, builders and suppliers of materials will have made their contribution and that they are collectively confident about the integrity of the standard. Enough that the use of hull windows is almost universal and literally tens of thousands have been installed over the last 20 years or so.

Yet here we are with a handful of reported instances of failures that allows someone on a forum to claim that the standard is inadequate and needs revision. Bizarre or what?

Here was I thinking that the Enlightenment led to demise of witch hunts!

 

[geem]

Pretty thin "evidence" that there is a systematic problem with hull windows popping out while sailing "bluewater" - which is the OPs claim.

Have you studied ISO 12216 in detail so that you know exactly what the standard requires? I have not, but can be pretty certain that the authors know more about the subject than anybody on this forum, that the designers, builders and suppliers of materials will have made their contribution and that they are collectively confident about the integrity of the standard. Enough that the use of hull windows is almost universal and literally tens of thousands have been installed over the last 20 years or so.

Yet here we are with a handful of reported instances of failures that allows someone on a forum to claim that the standard is inadequate and needs revision. Bizarre or what?

Here was I thinking that the Enlightenment led to demise of witch hunts!

OMG. Your blood pressure must be through the roof!

 

[Blueboatman]

Ah Tranona

I knew you would bite
With words rhetoric and dilution “ one in a million”. Couldn’t possibly happen. “Shurely”. “ Not sure that.. “
“ Of course” it could have been owner abuse .
Or a mooring mishap . Or or or
Same old same old.

Good on you.

Not so good when things go wrong and all you have to fix it are words eh!
But hey, boatbuilders will continue to sell these things because people buy them.

And as I wrote . It is not my problem.
Not yours either really as you won’t be crossing any ocean will you ?

 

[Tranona]

OMG. Your blood pressure must be through the roof!

No, very calm - but then I am not prone to writing hysterical posts about something that seems only to exist in your mind.

 

[geem]

No, very calm - but then I am not prone to writing hysterical posts about something that seems only to exist in your mind.

Nothing hysterical. You are imagining things.

 

[Tranona]

Not yours either really as you won’t be crossing any ocean will you ?

But the "examples" you quoted did not occur during ocean passages, but in the English Channel. The OP claims the standard is inadequate for boats that are intended to cross oceans despite the overwhelming evidence that hundreds if not thousands have done so successfully.

As you say not my problem - but more importantly it is NOT a problem at all

 

[geem]

But the "examples" you quoted did not occur during ocean passages, but in the English Channel. The OP claims the standard is inadequate for boats that are intended to cross oceans despite the overwhelming evidence that hundreds if not thousands have done so successfully.

As you say not my problem - but more importantly it is NOT a problem at all

The point about ocean passages is you can't rely on a forecast. The boat has to deal with the weather you get. Being caught out in the English channel is foolish when forecast are reasonably accurate short term.
You have never dealt with bad weather. That maybe influences your view on the suitability of the Cat A ocean standard. I have seen bad weather and that influences my view. I wouldn't want to be in a monohull in a F9 with large hull windows. Maybe I am just too cautious.

 

[lustyd]

What’s unreliable about ocean forecasts? I’d have thought they were pretty good for three days out as with any forecast

 

[Blueboatman]

But the "examples" you quoted did not occur during ocean passages, but in the English Channel. The OP claims the standard is inadequate for boats that are intended to cross oceans despite the overwhelming evidence that hundreds if not thousands have done so successfully.

As you say not my problem - but more importantly it is NOT a problem at all

Stuart I’m out of words and patience with you. This is plain silly.
A hole in the hull is a hole in the hull is a hole in the hull.

If it happened here, there or far-away it is still a hole . Don’t think I’m missing anything there.
A bit of a problem
Wherever you sink or call out the RNLI or ask a ship to divert.
So a bit less of the salesmans pitch ‘she be right mate , off you go’

If anyone does a Google on dodgy windows I am delighted that this thread and others like it will pop up somewheres and patently it is not always ‘alright’.

 

[geem]

What’s unreliable about ocean forecasts? I’d have thought they were pretty good for three days out as with any forecast

The problem going West to East across the Atlantic is that you are in the depression track. Weather systems can move quickly and be unpredictable.
Many cruisers leave the Caribbean and sail north to Bermuda for a stop over. Bermuda is often in the middle of the depressions coming out of the eastern seaboard of the USA. It can be hard to avoid weather systems due to their size and speed. The models don't always agree if the weather is complex and the decision to keep going or avoid a LP system can be less than straightforward. Depending where you are in relation to the LP system will determine if you get following winds or head winds. Sometimes you don't get the choice and beating to weather is your only option.
The situation closer to the USA east coast can be more difficult. Lots of LP systems are born here so actually getting clear of the coast can see unreliable weather predictions even after a day or two of leaving.
The snowbirds heading south from ports along the East coast of the USA to the Bahamas and Caribbean in November, often have to deal with tough weather conditions. The gulf stream crossing is notoriously treacherous in the wrong weather conditions. A number of boats got beaten up this year seeing winds over 50kts. One catamaran sank. The trip is over 1000nm and once you have crossed the gulf stream you are generally committed with the only safe refuge being Bermuda to the East.
The west to East Atlantic crossing is generally far more straightforward as once you get south of the Canaries, LP weather systems are a rare thing.
The trades can run pretty hard at times and winds speeds over 40 kts are not uncommon, with sea states to match but compared to crossing the opposite way, the wind direction is pretty reliable. It's rare to not have an easterly component.
There is a reason why so many boats get shipped back to Europe from the Caribbean.
A friend of ours left the East coast last year to head back across the pond. He was in a Rival 38. He got beaten up pretty badly in the first few days and ended up turning back. He is shipping the boat home this year instead