Carrying flares

[flaming]

Sorry, when I said VHF didn't mean to exclude handhelds, I should have made that clearer.

That's fine... But the reality is that a handheld VHF in a liferaft has a very limited range even in good weather. And is subject to being charged and also that you know your position to be able to tell to whoever is listening so that they can find you.
Doesn't in the slightest mean I wouldn't want one in the liferaft with me, of course I would, but again if you're thinking it can completely cover the capabilities of a parachute flare.... No, they do different things. Which is really my entire point.
Nothing else does what a VHF does, allow you to talk directly to people who might be able to help and the coastguard.
Nothing else does what a PLB or EPIRB does, summon help from the authorities from over the horizon.
And.... Nothing else does what a parachute flare does. Which is to provide a great big unambiguous "LOOK AT ME, I'M OVER HERE AND I NEED HELP" signal to people close to you that might be able to help you that doesn't require anything other than the mk1 eyeball to interpret.

 

[Tranona]

Just to be clear, neither of these events was in extreme weather. Neither was over a F5. I can also think of a dozen incidents that might pitch the crew of a family cruiser into the water, or a liferaft, with no time to make a mayday, just hopefully grab the grab bag and its contents. None very likely at all. But all possible. Your acceptance of risk may of course differ from mine.

Indeed. That is the point I have made many times. Lots of awful things could happen - but don't. one good example is the deployment of liferafts. Very rarely (and increasingly so in N European waters) for pleasure boats, but regularly for fishing boats. Experiences from one have very little relevance to the other. Similarly racing boats in all weathers inevitably creates situations that leisure sailors would never encounter - but offshore and ocean sailors might.

That gets back to my specific question. Given that race and rally organisers make flares compulsory, and by their very nature their events put participants in potentially much more dangerous situations, it would be useful if they produced some hard data about the deployment of a range of safety communication equipment during their events. My guess is that although there will be reports of isolated individual incidents there will be little evidence of systemic use of flares.

 

[Mark-1]

Flaming, you wrote a list of alternatives to Para Flares in order to support a 'delay' point. I pointed out you missed two. That was it.

If you want a general discussion about the pros and cons of different methods of communication maybe someone else will help you out, or you could just read previous threads where it's all been said before over and over.

(Except IR Illuminators which was new to these threads IMHO - Kudos to Praxinoscope.)

 

[flaming]

Flaming, you wrote a list of alternatives to Para Flares in order to support a 'delay' point. I pointed out you missed two. That was it.

If you want a general discussion about the pros and cons of different methods of communication maybe someone else will help you out, or you could just read previous threads where it's all been said before over and over.

(Except IR Illuminators which was new to these threads IMHO.)

Ok, well I'm not looking for an argument. My point was very specifically related to 2 high profile incidents that I provided evidence for. In which VHF was not available to the casualties, and PLB and flares were variously used as being the sole means of distress communication available to the casualties. And pointing out the difference in delay time.
I make the further point that assuming that VHF is available, in fixed or handheld form, when considering your response to catastrophic events is not really backed up by incident reports such as these. And that what this is really about is considering the contents of your grab bag.

 

[Praxinoscope]

Mark-1, I was trying to do the same as you and keep off this thread, but yes they are addictive.
It was just a thought that an IR emitting LED could give a similar heat signal to the heat of a flare.
Once tried to let off a an expired flare one bonfire night, no pressure, no adrenaline, no danger, yet I still manage to b****r it up slightly, I pulled the ring in the wrong direction and almost lost my thumb, the thought of doing this in the dark with the apprehension building as the boat under me is in serious difficulty does not endear to me the use of flares in times of emergency.
LED flares may still be in their infancy but I think I will take the risk and avoid letting fireworks off from the unstable platform of a sinking boat or a very squidgey life-raft.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

Mark-1, I was trying to do the same as you and keep off this thread, but yes they are addictive.
It was just a thought that an IR emitting LED could give a similar heat signal to the heat of a flare.
Once tried to let off a an expired flare one bonfire night, no pressure, no adrenaline, no danger, yet I still manage to b****r it up slightly, I pulled the ring in the wrong direction and almost lost my thumb, the thought of doing this in the dark with the apprehension building as the boat under me is in serious difficulty does not endear to me the use of flares in times of emergency.
LED flares may still be in their infancy but I think I will take the risk and avoid letting fireworks off from the unstable platform of a sinking boat or a very squidgey life-raft.

I will also avoid running into shipping containers, which killed a freinds fiance, avoid through hull failure that kills many fisherman, avoid keel failure as in several high profile instances, being swept onto a lee shore, or swept off the boat by the boom as happened to very experienced sailor the other year (frightening to listen to the radio traffic resulting).

However should these things happen I will take all steps to make sure I and Navigator survive. First try and remedy, then try VHF and ask for help, then try and attract attention otherwise. So if LED flares didnt work what else might I try? Setting fire to rags in saucepan has been done but chemical flares still might be your man. People have died in liferafts so you dont want to drift around in them unnoticed. Have all means available to you in your grab kit

 

[Praxinoscope]

In reply to #126
Unfortunately to maintain the warranty on the life-raft it still has to have pyrotechnic flares as part of its standard kit, perhaps in a few years this requirement will be changed to include LED flares, which my 'grab bag' does contain along with a hand held VHF.

 

[JumbleDuck]

My point was if my reception class son's head torch can been seen five miles away, LED flares are likely to be adequately bright, although nothing electric will compare with the hyper brightness of a pyro. None the less it probably supports a 'no' to Tranona's second question.

Odeo claim a detection range of "Minimum 3 nautical miles; up to 6 nautical miles in ideal conditions" and a luminous intensity of 100 cd. Coverage is "Full upper hemisphere plus 20 degrees below". That's 8.4 steradians, so the luminous flux is 840 lumens, or about the same as one of these:

(Wilkos, 810 lumen, £2.50). So the question for those who think an Odeo flare is the answer is "Do you trust your life to someone seeing the equivalent of a 60W incandescent light bulb at 5 miles?"

Edit: Specs say that a handheld pyrotechnic flare must be at least 15,000 cd (150 times brighter than an Odeo) and an aerial flare must be at least 30,000 cd (300 times brighter).

 

[Juan Twothree]

Just a couple of points, which may or may not be helpful/relevant:

Once the lifeboat has been tasked to your assistance, and is looking for you, there are a few options available to pinpoint your exact location. In no particular order:

1. We can get a bearing from a PLB or EPIRB (assuming it transmits a homing signal on 121.5 MHz, not sure if they all do)

2. A DF bearing on your VHF transmissions, on any channel

3. Red /LED/laser flare, or whatever is currently in fashion

4. Flashing a torch/ nav lights/ or even mobile phone if necessary

5. Shouting (don't laugh, it's worked when no other methods are available).

 

[Ink]

Don't use a flare, then. But if there is a boat ten minutes away, I want a way of attracting its attention.

For the record I carry a VHF (with Big Red Button), an EPIRB (with Big Blue Switch) and a coastal flare pack. I don;t have a laser "flare" because I think they are toys to show off over drinks in the marina rather than a viable means of signalling.

Would you consider using a "toy" once you have pressed the big red button then the big blue button and fired off all you flares?

Ink

 

[Mark-1]

Odeo claim a detection range of "Minimum 3 nautical miles; up to 6 nautical miles in ideal conditions" and a luminous intensity of 100 cd. Coverage is "Full upper hemisphere plus 20 degrees below". That's 8.4 steradians, so the luminous flux is 840 lumens, or about the same as one of these:

(Wilkos, 810 lumen, £2.50). So the question for those who think an Odeo flare is the answer is "Do you trust your life to someone seeing the equivalent of a 60W incandescent light bulb at 5 miles?"

Edit: Specs say that a handheld pyrotechnic flare must be at least 15,000 cd (150 times brighter than an Odeo) and an aerial flare must be at least 30,000 cd (300 times brighter).

No, I don't trust my life to a light. I think using light to communicate something as important as my position and my need for help is laughable and dangerous.

BUT, if I wanted to communicate with light, and 800 lumins will do the job, then fine by me. So it all comes down to what level of light is adequate. Personally, five miles seems reasonable for guiding in a rescuer.

And if TXing your light message at 60W scares you, don't forget your VHF will TX at 25W tops! "Would you trust your life to something less than half the power of a 60w bulb!? ?" (...and 60W is ballpark the average power I output on a long steady off road bike ride. Not to be sniffed at.)



The mag article I posted did all their tests at five miles, and everything was visible - including the torch - so three miles seems a bit of an under estimate.

If range beyond five miles is important, of course you can tape an LED flare to a halyard to get it above the horizon, not something you can do with a flare. I wonder if, in practice, LED flares are visible from further because of that.

PS: Is your anchor light less than 60W? Sounds dangerous, trusting your life to that. Dunno how you sleep.

PPS: If we're going to measure our communications by power then setting fire to a 5ltr can of petrol gives us 50kwh! That ought to summon 5589 lifeboats and 56 helicopters whereas a 25W VHF will only summon one or two lifeboats and maybe a helicopter. Or something. ?

 

[Graham376]

My point was if my reception class son's head torch can been seen five miles away,

I doubt anyone would see a torch 5 miles away unless they were looking for it in flat calm and there were no other lights around or bright stars near the horizon. I've seen too many toy lasers to take them seriously in coastal waters but well offshore then maybe.

 

[penberth3]

Just a couple of points, which may or may not be helpful/relevant:

Once the lifeboat has been tasked to your assistance, and is looking for you, there are a few options available to pinpoint your exact location. In no particular order:

1. We can get a bearing from a PLB or EPIRB (assuming it transmits a homing signal on 121.5 MHz, not sure if they all do)

2. A DF bearing on your VHF transmissions, on any channel

3. Red /LED/laser flare, or whatever is currently in fashion

4. Flashing a torch/ nav lights/ or even mobile phone if necessary

5. Shouting (don't laugh, it's worked when no other methods are available).

You could add to Number 5 an aerosol gas horn, or a good whistle i.e. a loud one, not the standard Perry whistle/lifejacket whistle.

 

[Graham376]

"Do you trust your life to someone seeing the equivalent of a 60W incandescent light bulb at 5 miles?"

I certainly wouldn't. That someone may well have night vision ruined by deck lights, instruments and radar and be sitting behind a wet window and the deck level small distress light may often be hidden behind waves.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Would you consider using a "toy" once you have pressed the big red button then the big blue button and fired off all you flares?

At that stage I'd consider playing my accordion loudly, and with about the same expectation of success.

 

[JumbleDuck]

And if TXing your light message at 60W scares you, don't forget your VHF will TX at 25W tops!

The person at the other end of the VHF communication is using the equivalent of night vision glasses.

The mag article I posted did all their tests at five miles, and everything was visible - including the torch - so three miles seems a bit of an under estimate.

How heavy was the rain at the time? Did they know where to look?

PS: Is your anchor light less than 60W? Sounds dangerous, trusting your life to that. Dunno how you sleep.

If I anchored in places where being seen from 5 miles away mattered, I would be a little restless, yes.

PPS: If we're going to measure our communications by power then setting fire to a 5ltr can of petrol gives us 50kwh!

What's that in tar barrels?

 

[Mark-1]

How heavy was the rain at the time? Did they know where to look?

So visibility is a concern. Guess that rules a light based comms mechanism out. If only VHF/EPIRB/Mobile Phone/PLB worked in poor visibility. Ohhh, wait.....

 

[Bru]

In which case I would change to lithium AA well before the bog standard ones' expiry date. They have better shelf life and continue to work well in low temperatures. I'd also consider silicone* grease on the terminals.

*Or whatever is considered best nowadays.

Were i ever likely to be at sea in low temperatures i would do so. But I'm an unashamed fair weather sailor and if it's anything below 10 deg. c. I'll be tucked up in port in the warm with a glass of something warming

Similar applies to the shelf life - for us, it's not an issue. We only sail during the spring, summer and autumn and the Laser flare gets new batteries at the start of each season

During the winter, it's stored without batteries in a warm dry cupboard at home and in the summer it lives in a sealed bag with dessicant packs in the grab bag which in turn is in a warm dry (and easily accessible) place

I have zero concerns about small lithium batteries of that size. I just don't need to go that route for our usage

(I don't like applying anything to electrical terminals. It is something that was severely frowned upon when i was an apprentice electrical engineer and whatever the arguments for and against that training sticks and has stood me in good stead for more than forty years. Better, i was taught, to prevent the cause of the problem than mitigate the effects of it)

Back to the broader discussion, i suspect most if not all commentators who doubt the efficacy of Laser flares have never tried one out. They're VERY bright and the pattern of flickering is very distinctive. I have no doubts about their effectiveness for guiding SAR assets over the last mile or two once they're in your vicinity even in daylight

However, and thus my reluctance to dispense altogether with pyrotechnic flares, i do doubt their effectiveness for summoning help in the first instance

On the other hand, i routinely sail with my wife and occasionally my cousin neither of whom would be remotely confident or for that matter willing to set off a pyrotechnic flare (the matter has been discussed, videos have been watched, and both have expressed extreme reluctance)

Their goto is therefore the electronic means of summoning assistance - DSC red button (on two fixed VHF sets and the primary handheld) and a PLB plus the laser flare

Given that we almost never sail out of VHF range of shore stations (indeed, we probably never ever sail beyond range of a DSC alert transmission) and we sail in heavily trafficked waters (the Southern North Sea and the English Channel) realistically the only thing that would prevent a DSC alert followed by a voice MAYDAY being effective would be a complete failure of three independent systems - we have a fixed VHF with antenna on the main mast, a second fixed VHF with antenna on the mizzen (with no triatic so loss of both masts is extremely unlikely) plus a backup deck level antenna which can be connected to either fixed VHF plus, for good measure, the DSC hand held!

Add in the PLB for good measure and the chances of ever needing to use a parachute flare are virtually zero

However, there are two functions where I'm reluctant to dispense with pyrotechnics... smoke and anti-collision

There is no substitute for smoke to guide in the paraffin parrot and give them wind direction and strength indications

And whilst the bulk of our flares live in the usual waterproof container in the emergency locker (under the companionway step) a white anti- collision flare lives ready to hand in clips above the nav table.

When we next make ready for sea (next spring i hope) i think I'll be replacing all the flares, despite the expense and issues, on the grounds of better safe than sorry

But i do wish i didn't have to!

 

[JumbleDuck]

So visibility is a concern. Guess that rules a light based comms mechanism out. If only VHF/EPIRB/Mobile Phone/PLB worked in poor visibility. Ohhh, wait.....

I don't know why you're trying to pick a fight over this. Wouldn't you agree that more light is less than less light just as more VHF power is better than less VHF power?