Carrying flares

[Mark-1]

IRRC The lifeboat asked me to turn all my lights on. Please note, when this event took place LEDs were not invented. Well, apart from in watches etc.

So your example of the essential nature of flares to guide a vessel in involves you using your standard electric lights for the purpose.

 

[michael_w]

I wouldn't have found the liferaft so quickly without the flare.

 

[JumbleDuck]

See my comments in #64, there are plenty of times when there isn't a boat within 15-25 miles of us.

Don't use a flare, then. But if there is a boat ten minutes away, I want a way of attracting its attention.

For the record I carry a VHF (with Big Red Button), an EPIRB (with Big Blue Switch) and a coastal flare pack. I don;t have a laser "flare" because I think they are toys to show off over drinks in the marina rather than a viable means of signalling.

 

[flaming]

This is a one off experience, and I am sure over the years there have been more similar specific examples. However the chances of a third party randomly seeing a flare is vanishingly small compared with the number of recipients of alternative means of communication. For every one example like you there are many more that report firing flares and nobody saw them

What would be much more interesting is to get evidence of examples of casualties that were not rescued and died but would have been saved if only a flare had been set off.

As to my "strictures", when you are looking for evidence to make what are effectively policy decisions you have to look beyond individual examples and consider all the different means of communicating with rescue services, then try to make an assessment of their effectiveness. You can only do this by counting the number of times each method was used effectively. When flares were the dominant means of communication, inevitably they would rank highly on that basis. However times have moved on and as the MCA and RYA say there is now a whole range of mechanisms that are far more effective and flares have now virtually disappeared as an effective method of communication from an individual vessel to the rescue services.

This does not mean they do not have uses in specific circumstances, but their general usefulness has now declined to the point that it should no longer be compulsory to carry them. This does not stop people from exercising their individual choices, but one hopes that the choice is made on a rational assessment of the evidence. One would also hope that those that make such a choice respect the decision of others who come to the conclusion that for them the disadvantages outweigh any perceived advantages.

Hooligan V.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/547c7036ed915d4c0d000085/HooliganVReport.pdf

No Flares and there is at least 1 more fatality. The delay in between setting of a PLB and the coastguard discounting it as a false alarm, and alerting nearby ships, who don't know what they are looking for, liferaft, boat, swimmer..... And then them being found at night in winter... Definitely longer, maybe not until dawn, which would have cost the skipper his life. Time between accident and being rescued in this instance is reported as 1 hour and 10 minutes. And then consider that it was, in the dark, the handheld red flares that allowed the ship to actually pinpoint the liferaft.

For evidence that this would be considerably slower relying on PLB or EPIRB, consider Rambler 100.
https://www.mcib.ie/_fileupload/Documents/reports/Rambler_100_Report_for_Website_241012.pdf

In that instance the flares didn't make it out of the boat. Only a PLB did. Another 3 boats sailed within a few hundred metres of the upturned hull without seeing them within half an hour or so of the incident. No way on earth that had there been a handheld flare outside the boat at that point they wouldn't have been seen, and rescued hours before they were. Nothing draws the attention to the eye quite like a handheld flare.
In actual fact it was 50 minutes between the PLBs being activated and the MRSC Valentia even being alerted of the activation. Rambler capsized at 1740. It was 1930 before a Mayday was broadcast by MRSC Valentia after they discounted a false alarm. And that was only because the navigator on board Leopard recognised the name of the person registered to the PLB, and then noticed that Rambler had vanished from AIS. It was 2031 before the 5 people in the water were pulled out, one of whom was categorised as critical and flown to hospital where thankfully she made a full recovery. So actually a very similar time from distress message being broadcast to rescue, the delays were all due to the electronic communication in that case.
If that had been winter, like the Hooligan incident, there would probably have been 5 fatalities.
If it had been a delivery, without Leopard's navigator around to recognise the name and escalate the alert from PLB activation PanPan to full blown "where's Rambler?" Mayday it probably also would have resulted in fatalities.

Which is why I believe that flares still have a place on a boat. As does EPIRB, and DSC VHF, and a PLB and....

Each one of them does a job that none of the other items can quite replicate. If you understand that and choose not to sail with any of the items, then fine. But don't pretend that you aren't leaving a hole in your inventory by not carrying flares.

 

[Mark-1]

I wouldn't have found the liferaft so quickly without the flare.

If the RNLI could find you with your normal electric lights, they could have found the liferaft if it had been showing a powerful electric light (LED Flare, for instance). They had a position after all, just as you did.

 

[michael_w]

Are you a troll?

 

[Mark-1]

I don;t have a laser "flare" because I think they are toys to show off over drinks in the marina rather than a viable means of signalling.

See post 40.

Carrying flares

 

[Tranona]

What would be useful is for those organisations who promote carrying laser "flares" were to disclose their evidence that participants have actually used them and lives have been saved because of laser "flares". However doubt they even keep any records, relying on the "everybody knows" approach to such matters.

Don't think any organisations (other than makers) are promoting LED flares. The issue surrounding them is how they compare with pyrotechnic flares, that is meet "standards", rather than whether a visual sign is effective in saving lives. There is no need for flare makers of either sort to promote the notion of flares, that is already firmly embedded - under "everybody knows"

 

[Praxinoscope]

There seems to be very little point in me continuing on this particular thread, there are those who believe that pyrotechnics becoming obsolete and those that think they are the bees knees.
Me I have jettisoned most of my pyrotechnics except for those in the liferaft, as without them it's warranty would be invalid, but fine if you want to carry on carrying them replacing them every 3 years and trying to dispose of them fine that is your choice, it's not for me to criticise your decision, I just think that with today's technology pyrotechnic flares are going the way of RDF and Decca

 

[Mark-1]

Don't think any organisations (other than makers) are promoting LED flares. The issue surrounding them is how they compare with pyrotechnic flares, that is meet "standards", rather than whether a visual sign is effective in saving lives. There is no need for flare makers of either sort to promote the notion of flares, that is already firmly embedded - under "everybody knows"

Which is a pretty good point.

Flares communicate in two ways: 1 with a bright light 2 with heat that a FLIR camera picks up.

So officialdom (RYA/RNLI/MCA) just needs to state a suggested 360 Deg brightness in lumins and 'battery life' that they deem appropriate, and a level of heat and 'battery life' they deem appropriate for the heat signature. (Those two mechanisms could be in two separate devices.)

Maybe 'officialdom' would decide that heat was needless. Maybe they'd pick a brightness requirement that could never be met by one particular power source, or a 'battery life' that couldn't be met by another.

All these debates are focussed on the power source, we should really be focussing on what we're actually trying to achieve.

(I'm talking about handhelds here, obvs.)

Anyone know the brightness of a cardinal mark's light in lumens? My google skills are weak today.

I suppose another issue is, back in the day when flares were relevant, there was a corresponding network of manned coastguard lookout huts covering a massive proportion of the coast. The fact these huts are often now bothies suggests they covered remote areas too. In that context you could argue flares are (to a degree) transmitters where the receivers were closed decades ago.

Going back to my earlier point, without knowing how much light is "enough", it's a bit tricky to say for sure that electric light is not enough.

 

[Graham376]

I wonder if you would be happy. GRP boat? Looking at the fallout I'm not sure I'd want that stuff over my gel coat. It's nasty enough to leave spots of dead grass. And what if the sea is lumpy. And what if you're busy managing the situation and you have to hand it to someone like me who's only let of four flares in my entire life. (And probably won't be as careful as you to keep it away from you sails/outboard whatever.)

What if it gets dropped?

I think 'happy' might be overstating the case a bit.

Life is full of what-ifs. Get real, if flares are needed, it would be because the boat is in danger of sinking or about to be washed on to rocks so, do you think I would give a damn about some gel coat damage? Very unlikely that anyone else beside the two of us would be on board anyway so no worries about others being handed one.

 

[Tranona]

A couple of related questions to ponder

If flares did not exist now and somebody invented them would they be hailed as a major contribution to safety?

and

If pyrotechnic flares did not exist would anybody bother to invent LED "flares"?

 

[Mark-1]

Life is full of what-ifs. Get real, if flares are needed, it would be because the boat is in danger of sinking or about to be washed on to rocks so, do you think I would give a damn about some gel coat damage?

Quite a stretch from that to 'happy' to use. Sounds like you're reluctant to use unless it's the last and only option. Which is perfectly reasonable, but it isn't happy to use!

Anyway, I'm going to be strong and duck out of this thread. Probably should have avoided it in the first place. I'll probably poke my head back in another time because I'd be genuinely interested on any source that helps determine a lumen value for rescue guiding purposes that *is* bright enough. I'm amazed RORC or someone doesn't specify for some purpose. (I'd also be interested in the objective brightness of Nav Marks.)

Fair winds, all.

 

[Mark-1]

A couple of related questions to ponder

If flares did not exist now and somebody invented them would they be hailed as a major contribution to safety?

and

If pyrotechnic flares did not exist would anybody bother to invent LED "flares"?

Couldn't resist one last post.

1) No.

2) Given bike lights off the shelf are typically 2000 lumens I suspect perhaps not.




"as a way of pinpointing your location to a rescuer who is looking out for you ... carrying one of the LED flares and a powerful white torch should cover all other eventualities."

Five mile range! Even the 300lumen torch could be seen at five miles. And the handheld only burned for 55 seconds. As a method for guiding a rescuer to you at night the LED flares seem to win hands down.

LED and laser flares tested - Practical Boat Owner

 

[Tranona]

Hooligan V.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/547c7036ed915d4c0d000085/HooliganVReport.pdf

No Flares and there is at least 1 more fatality. The delay in between setting of a PLB and the coastguard discounting it as a false alarm, and alerting nearby ships, who don't know what they are looking for, liferaft, boat, swimmer..... And then them being found at night in winter... Definitely longer, maybe not until dawn, which would have cost the skipper his life. Time between accident and being rescued in this instance is reported as 1 hour and 10 minutes. And then consider that it was, in the dark, the handheld red flares that allowed the ship to actually pinpoint the liferaft.

For evidence that this would be considerably slower relying on PLB or EPIRB, consider Rambler 100.
https://www.mcib.ie/_fileupload/Documents/reports/Rambler_100_Report_for_Website_241012.pdf

In that instance the flares didn't make it out of the boat. Only a PLB did. Another 3 boats sailed within a few hundred metres of the upturned hull without seeing them within half an hour or so of the incident. No way on earth that had there been a handheld flare outside the boat at that point they wouldn't have been seen, and rescued hours before they were. Nothing draws the attention to the eye quite like a handheld flare.
In actual fact it was 50 minutes between the PLBs being activated and the MRSC Valentia even being alerted of the activation. Rambler capsized at 1740. It was 1930 before a Mayday was broadcast by MRSC Valentia after they discounted a false alarm. And that was only because the navigator on board Leopard recognised the name of the person registered to the PLB, and then noticed that Rambler had vanished from AIS. It was 2031 before the 5 people in the water were pulled out, one of whom was categorised as critical and flown to hospital where thankfully she made a full recovery. So actually a very similar time from distress message being broadcast to rescue, the delays were all due to the electronic communication in that case.
If that had been winter, like the Hooligan incident, there would probably have been 5 fatalities.
If it had been a delivery, without Leopard's navigator around to recognise the name and escalate the alert from PLB activation PanPan to full blown "where's Rambler?" Mayday it probably also would have resulted in fatalities.

Which is why I believe that flares still have a place on a boat. As does EPIRB, and DSC VHF, and a PLB and....

Each one of them does a job that none of the other items can quite replicate. If you understand that and choose not to sail with any of the items, then fine. But don't pretend that you aren't leaving a hole in your inventory by not carrying flares.

Yes, good examples of extreme situations. both, though raise the question whether LED signals could have performed equally well, (given that one of the objections to pyros is safety of stowage and operation plus unreliability). So carrying a substitute (as I do) fills that hole to my satisfaction. however that does not change the fact that the chances of me, or any other leisure sailor ever getting into such a situation is vanishingly small.

In the whole scheme of risk assessment which precedes making choices of what equipment to carry, both incidents raise the all important issue of would you go to sea in a boat where the keel is likely to fall off?

There is always a danger of carrying over from one environment to another - what might be relevant in sailing extreme racing boats in extreme weather has little relevance to family cruisers.

 

[awol]

In the whole scheme of risk assessment which precedes making choices of what equipment to carry, both incidents raise the all important issue of would you go to sea in a boat where the keel is likely to fall off?

Don't you sail a Bavaria?

 

[Graham376]

Quite a stretch from that to 'happy' to use. Sounds like you're reluctant to use unless it's the last and only option. Which is perfectly reasonable, but it isn't happy to use!

Not in the least, I would be totally pissed off to have to use any device to call for help but very happy that flares are on board, to be used alongside EPIRB, PLB, 2 x VHF + emergency aerial. We won't be using any lasers, see too many being used as toys and party stunts to believe anyone would take them seriously as a distress signal.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

If the RNLI could find you with your normal electric lights, they could have found the liferaft with a powerful electric light. They had a position after all, just as you did.

No they might not have. Have you ever tried using searchlight at sea? I have used a small one in trying to spot a mooring and it was hard despite knowing the creek. If you know exactly where to point it is great, but for finding things it is rather random. A white/bluegrey hull in tumbling white/bluegrey water may not show that well and though obviously liferafts are bright orange , at night all cats are black as it were.

From the climbing world. A mountain instructor in pale blue jacket was avalanced and badly injured while alone. A Mountain rescue team came out looking for him and got assistance from helicopter. They passed within 100m of him on flattish ground without seeing him, despite image intensifiers etc in daylight, but found him on third pass. I have seen photo from heli about 100m up and I couldnt readily spot him on my own despite being told he was there. On third heli pass they noticed him, so he lived. He bought a bright orange jacket on recovery. Your lights be they nav light or torch might be vital for your survival. Your grab bag for liferaft needs headtorch plus handheld vhf.

 

[JumbleDuck]

A couple of related questions to ponder

If flares did not exist now and somebody invented them would they be hailed as a major contribution to safety?

and

If pyrotechnic flares did not exist would anybody bother to invent LED "flares"?

I'll vote "maybe" and "no".

 

[JumbleDuck]

No they might not have. Have you ever tried using searchlight at sea? I have used a small one in trying to spot a mooring and it was hard despite knowing the creek. If you know exactly where to point it is great, but for finding things it is rather random.

I've tried it from the cockpit of a yacht and found it practically no help at all, because light scattered back from the boat completely drowned out the much weaker light reflected back from what I was pointing it at. Rain makes it much worse. If I had a nice cosy wheelhouse with the searchlight mounted on top I imagine it could be easier, but as things stand a searchlight is pretty useless (for me) at anything other than very short range.