Graham376
Well-Known Member
But the PLB won't alert any boat within sight which a flare may do particularly at night, rockets can be seen for many miles. We have to carry flares but I would continue to, even if not mandatory.
Carrying flares
- Thread starter Tranona
- Start date
But the PLB won't alert any boat within sight which a flare may do particularly at night, rockets can be seen for many miles. We have to carry flares but I would continue to, even if not mandatory.
D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
Not always. Risk is a probability of a hazard resulting in a consequence. Some consequences are intolerable and do not require probability to be analysed. In general though you are correct as most Risk are based on probabilities as ultimately mitigation is a cost benefit calculation.
The fare is actually a very good example. I am sure we could all agree that a correctly manufactured flare to a recognised standard used by a trained and competent person has a very low probability of injury to the user. It also has a high probability of not performing its main function, to alert people remote from the incident that some form of help is required. It would be reasonable to assume that flares are safe but inefficient at achieving their function. However, the consequences of a flare misfiring may not be tolerable for the user, due to death, or its intended function, inability to alert. None of this involves calculated probability. A reasonable conclusion that can be arrived at based on such a simple analysis is Tranona's Post 60.
Taking it further, removing the hazard and thus the consequences, we can see that hand held DSC VHFs, fixed DSC VHFs, PLBs, EPIRBs all provide safer and more reliable solutions to our main objective: alerting someone remote to the incident that you need help. Of course misuse and incompetence equally makes these alternatives just as useless as the exploded flare.
oldmanofthehills
Well-Known Member
I have had 2 pan pans and 2 asking CG for advice. All went well by vhf though on the later request the cg advised me that all accessible ports of refuge were closed and other urgent action required. So it might have possibly even turned to may day without info. Of course I have eprib and plb as well but can have big delay before satelite spots it snd message relayed to useful authorities. There are big issues on satellite monitoring/cg/rnli interface. As i said its not either or and you could have led flare and real one. Resl flares are not explosive and used several in practice and demonstrated to Navigator when we got together. No problems using them on land, so no doubt work as well at sea.
Praxinoscope
Well-Known Member
You are missing my point entirely! We sail in a very quiet sea area, I can sail all day and not see another boat, have a look at the AIS sites and see how many AIS signals are around the mid section of Cardigan Bay Area, a flare would be about as much use as a bicycle for a fish. I pick up at best one or two a week.
I echo Tranona in that there are many sailing areas where visual distress signals are of very little use, hence the reason I prefer VHF/DCS and PLB or EPIRB.
The area you sail in, is the marine equivalent to Piccadilly Circus compared to ours further down the West Coast.
As an afterthought, it is part of the story that other ships did see the distress rockets from the Titanic, but dismissed them as a firework display. (Radio communications were still in their infancy, we now have far superior communication systems)
I echo Tranona in that there are many sailing areas where visual distress signals are of very little use, hence the reason I prefer VHF/DCS and PLB or EPIRB.
The area you sail in, is the marine equivalent to Piccadilly Circus compared to ours further down the West Coast.
As an afterthought, it is part of the story that other ships did see the distress rockets from the Titanic, but dismissed them as a firework display. (Radio communications were still in their infancy, we now have far superior communication systems)
Last edited:
Mark-1
Well-Known Member
Given people giving flare displays wear gauntlets and stand clear of other people with a sand bucket adjacent I'm not sure that's true at all.
My 5yo son can be trusted with the VHF or a phone. He can hold his 250 lumin head torch with strobe. Would I give him a handheld flare and say "let this off while I deal with the situation."? Errr. No.
So I don't think the safety of flares is a given, by any means. In fact, I'm struggling to think of a more dangerous form of communication. (Tar barrel?)
Last edited:
PilotWolf
Well-Known Member
Is the price difference that high, if you remove things that would’ve probably been there anyway like VHF?
W
Graham376
Well-Known Member
Yes, flares have dangers but they usually live in a sealed box and are only used as a last resort, unlike gas and outboard fuel which are used daily, without much thought. I've set off quite a lot of out of date flares so would be quite happy to use them on board day or night if needed.
D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
It’s true for the conditions I stated whether you believe me or not. The safety of flares is never a given as they have significant hazards.
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
You can always throw them at somebody.
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
Ho-hum.
[/QUOTE]
All true, but I think an awful lot of gadgets are bought with wallets when the head should at least have a say.
D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
They are explosive by the very nature of their reaction. The reactions are controlled by design to produce the required result. There is evidence of flares exploding as the desired control failed.
michael_w
Well-Known Member
Many years ago I was racing double handed to Le Harvre. Just out of the Eastern Solent on a pitch black night with the wind picking up to F5. A Mayday from one of the competitors goes out. Something has forced the rudder into the hull and they're making water badly.
Solent Coastguard responds.
We plot the casualty's position and were only a couple of miles away, by this time , they're in the liferaft. Bembridge lifeboat has been scrambled. Another competitor and the Pride of Cherbourg ferry are coming to help too.
I can't spot the liferaft against the lights of Portsmouth so I asked for a flare. Yes! There they are. We closed in and guided the lifeboat in. Much easier for them to do the pick up than a small yacht with few crew. Pride of Chebourg created a lee which helped enormously.
We were stood down and continued with our race.
A postscript, We appealed for redress and were awarded joint second place in our class and gained the Pera Award from the RORC for yachts which receive redress for rendering assistance in a race. Hand held flares lead to a successful rescue.
Solent Coastguard responds.
We plot the casualty's position and were only a couple of miles away, by this time , they're in the liferaft. Bembridge lifeboat has been scrambled. Another competitor and the Pride of Cherbourg ferry are coming to help too.
I can't spot the liferaft against the lights of Portsmouth so I asked for a flare. Yes! There they are. We closed in and guided the lifeboat in. Much easier for them to do the pick up than a small yacht with few crew. Pride of Chebourg created a lee which helped enormously.
We were stood down and continued with our race.
A postscript, We appealed for redress and were awarded joint second place in our class and gained the Pera Award from the RORC for yachts which receive redress for rendering assistance in a race. Hand held flares lead to a successful rescue.
Mark-1
Well-Known Member
I wonder if you would be happy. GRP boat? Looking at the fallout I'm not sure I'd want that stuff over my gel coat. It's nasty enough to leave spots of dead grass. And what if the sea is lumpy. And what if you're busy managing the situation and you have to hand it to someone like me who's only let of four flares in my entire life. (And probably won't be as careful as you to keep it away from you sails/outboard whatever.)
What if it gets dropped?
I think 'happy' might be overstating the case a bit.
Mark-1
Well-Known Member
A case where an led flare would have worked fine. Pretty sure a strobe would have worked fine as well since a position had been given.
Also you say you guided a lifeboat in. Sounds like you didn't use a flare to guide the lifeboat in! (If they'd used a strobe or an LED flare then they could have used it a second time and there would have been no need for a third party to do any lifeboat guiding.)
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
With respect, I think that betrays a rather south-coast-centric or at least crowded-areas-centric point of view, because it assumes that the point of the exercise is to get in touch with the rescue services, rather than get help. Where I sail the nearest lifeboat may well be several hours away (and tough luck if it's already on a shout) so the aim is also to get in touch with people in the village over there. VHF won't do that. EPIRB won't do that. A laser "flare" probably won't do that. A bloody big flame r cloud of smoke probably will.
Of course if you do want to get in touch with the rescue services flares probably aren't as good as VHF (as long as you're not in one of the areas here with no CG VHF coverage) or AIS (as long as you don't mind waiting an hour or two while all the contact checks are done.
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
What would be useful is for those organisations who promote carrying laser "flares" were to disclose their evidence that participants have actually used them and lives have been saved because of laser "flares". However doubt they even keep any records, relying on the "everybody knows" approach to such matters.
michael_w
Well-Known Member
IRRC The lifeboat asked me to turn all my lights on. Please note, when this event took place LEDs were not invented. Well, apart from in watches etc.
On another occasion standing on a friend's balcony in Dalkey, just south of Dublin I saw a parachute flare go off. I called the Coast guard, who said , 'Thank you, your report gives us a triangulation, The lifeboat has been launched'.
On another occasion standing on a friend's balcony in Dalkey, just south of Dublin I saw a parachute flare go off. I called the Coast guard, who said , 'Thank you, your report gives us a triangulation, The lifeboat has been launched'.
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
Whereas the flare will advise the people in that boat just over there. You know, the one ten minutes away ...
Buck Turgidson
Well-Known Member
And even fewer have sat at the sharp end of a SAR aircraft searching for a target.
Personally I think the more options the better but know how to use what you've got or it's just bulk.
Praxinoscope
Well-Known Member
See my comments in #64, there are plenty of times when there isn't a boat within 15-25 miles of us, and judging by your comments on where you sail, you might be very lucky to have a boat within ten minutes of you.
Last edited: