Carrying flares

[Gary Fox]

Do you have any hard quantifiable evidence that this is the case and that the casualties would not have been rescued in the absence of a flare?

If my experience counts as 'hard quantifiable evidence', we got assistance and a tow off some rocks using a HH flare, after all other methods of calling for help had failed.
Not sure how hard you want your evidence, there were reliable witnesses: I had one crew with a PhD in Physics, and the other is in the USMC, but I feel disinclined to bother them to comply with your strictures.

 

[Tranona]

If my experience counts as 'hard quantifiable evidence', we got assistance and a tow off some rocks using a HH flare, after all other methods of calling for help had failed.
Not sure how hard you want your evidence, there were reliable witnesses: I had one crew with a PhD in Physics, and the other is in the USMC, but I feel disinclined to bother them to comply with your strictures.

This is a one off experience, and I am sure over the years there have been more similar specific examples. However the chances of a third party randomly seeing a flare is vanishingly small compared with the number of recipients of alternative means of communication. For every one example like you there are many more that report firing flares and nobody saw them

What would be much more interesting is to get evidence of examples of casualties that were not rescued and died but would have been saved if only a flare had been set off.

As to my "strictures", when you are looking for evidence to make what are effectively policy decisions you have to look beyond individual examples and consider all the different means of communicating with rescue services, then try to make an assessment of their effectiveness. You can only do this by counting the number of times each method was used effectively. When flares were the dominant means of communication, inevitably they would rank highly on that basis. However times have moved on and as the MCA and RYA say there is now a whole range of mechanisms that are far more effective and flares have now virtually disappeared as an effective method of communication from an individual vessel to the rescue services.

This does not mean they do not have uses in specific circumstances, but their general usefulness has now declined to the point that it should no longer be compulsory to carry them. This does not stop people from exercising their individual choices, but one hopes that the choice is made on a rational assessment of the evidence. One would also hope that those that make such a choice respect the decision of others who come to the conclusion that for them the disadvantages outweigh any perceived advantages.

 

[geem]

We carry flares, a red led flare as well, two EPIRBs, two plbs, two DSC vhfs (one antenna on each mast), Garmin Inreach with distress button, SSB. I think we have it covered?

 

[Iliade]

You do know that those laser flares are powered by lithium batteries don't you? ?


I'll get my coat...

 

[dunedin]

If my experience counts as 'hard quantifiable evidence', we got assistance and a tow off some rocks using a HH flare, after all other methods of calling for help had failed.
Not sure how hard you want your evidence, there were reliable witnesses: I had one crew with a PhD in Physics, and the other is in the USMC, but I feel disinclined to bother them to comply with your strictures.

Interesting. Can you confirm
- which year this was?
- how close to busy / populated location ?
- what other methods failed ( eg DSC VHF with position, AIS position transmission, PLB, LED flare, mobile phone stating lat long etc)?

 

[Juan Twothree]

As others have said, whilst flares might not be the first choice as the primary means of summoning assistance, a couple of handflares can still be useful, particularly if the original reported position was slightly out, or you've drifted.

 

[Mark-1]

As others have said, whilst flares might not be the first choice as the primary means of summoning assistance, a couple of handflares can still be useful, particularly if the original reported position was slightly out, or you've drifted.

...but why short lived single use pyros instead of LED flares with all the associated advantages?

The only two answers to that I've heard is 'brightness' and the fact a pyro will show well on a FLIR camera.

I'm unconvinced by the need for the former. The latter is pretty compelling but many people will think they can manage without. Or go Heath Robinson and heat up an empty saucepan on the cooker and wave it or something... (And you can do that several times.)

 

[JumbleDuck]

...but why short lived single use pyros instead of LED flares with all the associated advantages?

How many documented cases are there of people being saved because they used LED "flares"?

 

[pyrojames]

...but why short lived single use pyros instead of LED flares with all the associated advantages?

The only two answers to that I've heard is 'brightness' and the fact a pyro will show well on a FLIR camera.

I'm unconvinced by the need for the former. The latter is pretty compelling but many people will think they can manage without. Or go Heath Robinson and heat up an empty saucepan on the cooker and wave it or something... (And you can do that several times.)

How useful are LED flares during the day, in comparison to a buoyant smoke flare?

 

[Stemar]

I've got a couple of lasers in the workshop which have failed to work after a couple of years.
Electronic gadgets stored on a boat, do you feel lucky?
If you're lucky, you won't be needing them anyway.....

One big advantage of a laser flare is that you can test it. If it works, put it away until, God forbid, you need it. If it doesn't, get a new battery for a couple of quid. Doesn't work so well for the fireworks.

I have several alternative methods of calling for help. That red flashy thing is just for the last mile. That's my risk assessment. Yours may differ and, if you do a different kind of sailing, probably should differ.

It's like the anchor threads. We're all going to die if we don't use a new generation anchor, totally ignoring the fact that thousands of boats have been anchoring for years on CQRs and worse, and are still here to tell the tale.

 

[Tranona]

How many documented cases are there of people being saved because they used LED "flares"?

Unanswerable question as no records are kept, and given the argument that visual indicators of position of casualty (ie flares) are not now effective except in very limited circumstances, probably very few given that they have only been available for a short period of time.

The main issue is whether visual indicators of position have a place in communication with rescue services given the wide range of reliable alternatives. If the answer is yes then the obvious question is whether LED "flares" are an effective alternative to pyrotechnics. MCA says no, US coastguard says yes. Increasingly consumers vote with their wallets and say yes.[/QUOTE]

 

[Tranona]

How useful are LED flares during the day, in comparison to a buoyant smoke flare?

How often are buoyant smoke flares used and as the sole means of identifying location?

 

[dunedin]

As others have said, whilst flares might not be the first choice as the primary means of summoning assistance, a couple of handflares can still be useful, particularly if the original reported position was slightly out, or you've drifted.

But a PLB, or perhaps AIS, would update precise position as drift.
As ever, it depends on what comparing with

 

[capnsensible]

Seems to me this always comes up as a subject that overlooks a couple of things.

Not everyone sails in congested areas like the Solent where getting attention is relatively easy. Even then, would a landlubber walking the dog on the beach be more likely to report a firework or wobbly lights?

Not everyone who sails or posts on here has their own boat, let alone fills it with the latest must have gadget. Whilst they are all very nice and can generate convincing arguments for how wonderful they are, respect for others is called for....in my opinion. ?

 

[Juan Twothree]

...but why short lived single use pyros instead of LED flares with all the associated advantages?

You may well be right, however I've never actually seen an LED flare in use, so have no idea of their effectiveness.

The short duration of a hand flare isn't an issue if the lifeboat crew have requested its use.
Several pairs of eyes will be eagerly scanning the horizon......

 

[Mark-1]

How useful are LED flares during the day, in comparison to a buoyant smoke flare?

Smoke is a special case. I don't think anyone disputes smoke flares have unique advantages. Certainly I wasn't talking about smoke flares.

 

[Mark-1]

You may well be right, however I've never actually seen an LED flare in use, so have no idea of their effectiveness.

Well no, but you've seen Cardinal Bouys and lighthouses and anchor lights, so you can be reasonably sure electric light works.

 

[Koeketiene]

Like all technology they are of their time, eventually becoming superseded. Similar to Shipping forecasts on BBC Radio 4.

Flares are living through their end of days time and while I am a supporter of flares, eventually I’ll switch to something else, but not yet.

Quite so.
I share your attitude.

And like you say, technology changes all the time.
On my first two boats, a NAVTEX was one of the first things I installed.
When, last year, I bought my current boat I never even considred it.
And I can't honestly say I miss it.

 

[[70521]]

Do you have any hard quantifiable evidence that this is the case and that the casualties would not have been rescued in the absence of a flare?

I offer you this as evidence. I like to have a variety of 'tools' available.

 

[Mark-1]

One minor point of order. A yachting mag tested lasers and found they emphatically didn't work. By definition you have to be bang on target which is difficult. (And, like pyros, takes the total attention of one crewmember.)

LEDs to signal position need a 360 field of view, which LED flares typically do.