Cannes Boat Show

[Portofino]

AFAIK there is no slow speed control manoeuvre that an IPS boat can do but that a shaft boat (with good bowthruster) can't do. And indeed the shaft boat does it more elegantly every time (no foaming water, no revving engines, and no general jerking around)

From observation in my Marina we have one aisle ,s approx 50 ft wide ( well seems like a boat Lenght ) to turn and fit 50 ftrs the pontoon each side .
The IPS guys do seem to jerk about -need a bit of fending off by "crew" -in calm and wind .Sessa 46 /43 Jeaneau 500 ,s Portofino 48 -every body looks terrified as they pass
Mean while the shaft guys - just arrive ,stop , turn, with a bit of BT reverse , in calmly ,no fuss,no panic , no or minimal fendering .

Tony-have you got a berth sorted for the new boat , with may well end up over 15 M more like nearer 16 M with pulpit / tender sticking out ?

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

The fuel figures published in the YBW review of P49 show 0.82mpg at 20k and 0.92 at 24k. It's more efficient but I suspect any fuel savings are wiped out by increased servicing costs unless you're doing 150-200 hours per year. As you say they must be going with IPS for wealthy first time boat owners who want an easier job berthing....

I noticed the 450 had Seakeeper installed, so I crawled in to engine room to see where they squeezed it in.

Shows how far back the engines are.

Seakeeper 5, pray it never breaks down replacement looks tricky.

11Kw genny

3500W inverter, presumably to power Gyro without having genny running underway?

Those are interesting pictures. No margin boards around the engine room hatch; and I wonder if that generator installation on a shelf might be a bit noisy?

 

[MapisM]

Shows how far back the engines are
...
Seakeeper 5, pray it never breaks down replacement looks tricky.
...
3500W inverter, presumably to power Gyro without having genny running underway?

Following the above order:
- That's pretty normal for any V-drive boat, I reckon.
- Actually, it looks like a neat placement to me. As close to the CoG and as low as possible, what's not to like? Even if the genset should be moved to replace it, that's a pretty rare occurrence... Probably more unlikely than removing engine(s)
- Yup, I suppose that's why.

PS: on second thought, I think the gyro and genset are placed on the aft side of the e/r, right?
I had the impression that they were in front of it, when I wrote "close to the CoG".
Anyway, surely they must have done their homework re. weight distribution - tanks are bound to be between the e/r and the main cabin, I suppose...?

 

[MapisM]

I dont have any experience of joystick control but from what I hear joystick control for shafts isn't as good as it is with IPS.

In my experience, the only difference is that IPS are more powerful in moving a boat sideways, compared to shafts+thrusters.
But that's actually more a problem than an advantage, because unless the thrusters on the shaft boats are not man enough for their job, the higher power is totally useless upon maneuvering, if not downright dangerous.
I've seen IPS powered boats rolling like pigs while mooring stern to, because if the helmsman pushes the joystick too much (say to port), the boat first and foremost lists to stbd, before even start moving. In one case, I've even witnessed two boats hitting each other with the rails, even if they were fendered properly.
Good thing that nobody had their hands on the rails.... :ambivalence:

 

[Nigelpickin]

H/L power modes are available at the helm - I think that the temptation is for some to keep th H power mode as the default setting as they might incorrectly feel that it offers more control when the opposite is true.
L power mode restricted to around 600rpm can look quite graceful if done well by the driver. H power mode is really only to counter wind when coming away from the dock if it's say >15kts beam on.

FWIW, we are now currently traversing the Douro and our IPS boat is turning out to be quite the river boat - 5mpg at 6.5kts and no speed restrictions so we can wind up the turbos every now and then

Of course in the wrong or more likely, learning hands, IPS boats can look ungainly in close quarter moves, but I'd love to see a top gear style challenge with say - stern to and finger berthing - coming to and leaving an anchorage - picking up a morning line - MOB and so on with a Shaft versus PODs. It would be interesting I think; anyone up for it?

 

[MapisM]

anyone up for it?

If you're interested to include in the contest also a shaft boat with no thrusters at all, I'm in.

 

[Nigelpickin]

If you're interested to include in the contest also a shaft boat with no thrusters at all, I'm in.

Just like an Italian to bring a knife to a gunfight!
Sounds like a date, should be in your neck of the woods next year....
Now we just need someone like Deleted User to sign up and Jack with his camera....

 

[Anders_P42]

Following the above order:
- That's pretty normal for any V-drive boat, I reckon.
- Actually, it looks like a neat placement to me. As close to the CoG and as low as possible, what's not to like? Even if the genset should be moved to replace it, that's a pretty rare occurrence... Probably more unlikely than removing engine(s)
- Yup, I suppose that's why.

PS: on second thought, I think the gyro and genset are placed on the aft side of the e/r, right?
I had the impression that they were in front of it, when I wrote "close to the CoG".
Anyway, surely they must have done their homework re. weight distribution - tanks are bound to be between the e/r and the main cabin, I suppose...?

The placement of gyro and gyro are spot on, forward of the engines. I think fuel tanks could be either side of gyro/genny, I doubt there's room in front because the spacious master cabin.

Nice idea to have the inverter there for Gyro.

I was being slightly pessimistic that a bearing failure on gyro would mean ripping out genny to get to the gyro, but perhaps bearings can be replaced in situ. And bearings must be designed for a few thousand hours life..

 

[TonyR123]

Tony-have you got a berth sorted for the new boat , with may well end up over 15 M more like nearer 16 M with pulpit / tender sticking out ?

Not bought a berth yet, but a few 15m berths available in Portals. The beam tends to be more important than the length. TBH I have seen 14m boats in my current 12m pontoon, with a beam of 3.99m (should be max of 4m beam including fenders).

As for shafts/IPS. Might have to test drive an IPS see what i think. Could it be that newer IPS boats are smoother (and jerk around less)?

 

[TonyR123]

I wonder if that generator installation on a shelf might be a bit noisy?

Have seen an aftermarket installation on the Prestige 500 that is installed exactly the same.

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

FWIW, we are now currently traversing the Douro and our IPS boat is turning out to be quite the river boat - 5mpg at 6.5kts and no speed restrictions so we can wind up the turbos every now and then

Wow, that's v impressive mpg - better than my Targa 40 (on outdrives) at the same speed.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

The fuel figures published in the YBW review of P49 show 0.82mpg at 20k and 0.92 at 24k. It's more efficient but I suspect any fuel savings are wiped out by increased servicing costs unless you're doing 150-200 hours per year.

I don't think those figures are that good at all. My 43ft Sealine F43 used to get 1nmpg at 20kts and my Ferretti 53 0.75nmpg at the same speed so 0.82nmpg isn't great. Interesting that efficiency increases at 24kts so maybe thats where IPS scores with this this particular boat

Shows how far back the engines are.

Proportionately the engines on my Ferretti 630 are even further aft but then on older Ferrettis like mine, the hull goes all the way back to the aft end of the bathing platform so they are still some way forward of the transom. One other advantage of having V drives and pushing the engines further aft is less noise in the saloon when underway. This is particularly noticeable on my boat when driving from the lower helm

Seakeeper 5, pray it never breaks down replacement looks tricky

.
Yeah but a breakdown is not going to stop the boat and if the cockpit deck is similar to other Ferrettis a large section of it can be removed to facilitate access to the engine bay

11Kw genny

Interesting that it is not a Kohler like on every other Ferretti I've seen. Cost saving?

3500W inverter, presumably to power Gyro without having genny running underway?

I very much doubt it. Not sure 3500W is enough and in any case, the inverter is probably there to power the 220V galley fridge and TV

 

[Portofino]

Not bought a berth yet, but a few 15m berths available in Portals. The beam tends to be more important than the length. TBH I have seen 14m boats in my current 12m pontoon, with a beam of 3.99m (should be max of 4m beam including fenders).

As for shafts/IPS. Might have to test drive an IPS see what i think. Could it be that newer IPS boats are smoother (and jerk around less)?

Those pics are all 14 x 4.84
If you Look @ the top pic there's plenty of beam left -all 3 of us are 4.2 beam .No fender contact -very generous here
I,am 14.55 total ,but 1/2 the boats are 50 ftrs so 15-15.5 M and use the beam -we are allowed 20 cm so that makes less than 4.64 -they not too bothered about L -
I think you will defo need a new berth 4M or less isn,t wide enough for today's crop of 50 ftrs .


That's why I asked
Cos depending on the new berths location - ( opens on to fairway etc ) the close 1/4 handling anxiety may not be necessary ?-
I,ve only had two MoBo,s each time bought the berth first --- then found a boat that fitted .
How about trying to Part ex your 12m for a 14or 15 M ( which will accept beam arround 4.6 or more ) for now .
Put your boat in it -sell it over the winter -then buy what you like to fit ?

For those unfamiliar with the W Med scene -that's the problem when changing boats ( diff size ) - one has to jiggle the boat deal and berth deal simultaneously .
The latter being the trickiest

 

[Anders_P42]

1) I don't think those figures are that good at all. My 43ft Sealine F43 used to get 1nmpg at 20kts and my Ferretti 53 0.75nmpg at the same speed so 0.82nmpg isn't great. Interesting that efficiency increases at 24kts so maybe thats where IPS scores with this this particular boat

2) Proportionately the engines on my Ferretti 630 are even further aft but then on older Ferrettis like mine, the hull goes all the way back to the aft end of the bathing platform so they are still some way forward of the transom. One other advantage of having V drives and pushing the engines further aft is less noise in the saloon when underway. This is particularly noticeable on my boat when driving from the lower helm

3) Yeah but a breakdown is not going to stop the boat and if the cockpit deck is similar to other Ferrettis a large section of it can be removed to facilitate access to the engine bay

4) Interesting that it is not a Kohler like on every other Ferretti I've seen. Cost saving?

5) I very much doubt it. Not sure 3500W is enough and in any case, the inverter is probably there to power the 220V galley fridge and TV

I numbered your points, as I'm not sure how you re-quote as you did.

1) The P43 (which uses the same QSB lumps as F450) has 0.72mpg at 23.5K (143lph). The P49 0.92mpg at 24.2k burning 120lph, in a boat that weights 4T more. That is more efficient, but unless the savings end up in your wallet they're not worth mentioning, Volvo pocket your fuel savings in service charges.

2) I like that Ferretti used v-drives, no idea why more manufacturers don't. As you say cruising noise must be reduced with engines that far back.

3) True

4) no idea which genny brand costs more, perhaps it was the correct dimensions for the space available.

5) Seakeeper 5 only requires a peak 2Kw on spool up with less when gyro running at full speed. I had a good chat with them on their stand, he said they can use as little at 1Kw at anchor on a relatively calm day. I didn't realise the two hydraulic rams are only active dampers, there's no hydraulic pump to operate them, only valves that control the flow of oil between to the two dampers to force torque on to the hull or not.

They plan to go even smaller too, to cover boats as small as 25'. They're on to a winner, costs can only continue to fall as they produce more, it won't be long before these are standard fit on most boats.

 

[jfm]

I numbered your points, as I'm not sure how you re-quote as you did.

1) The P43 (which uses the same QSB lumps as F450) has 0.72mpg at 23.5K (143lph). The P49 0.92mpg at 24.2k burning 120lph, in a boat that weights 4T more. That is more efficient, but unless the savings end up in your wallet they're not worth mentioning, Volvo pocket your fuel savings in service charges.

2) I like that Ferretti used v-drives, no idea why more manufacturers don't. As you say cruising noise must be reduced with engines that far back.

3) True

4) no idea which genny brand costs more, perhaps it was the correct dimensions for the space available.

5) Seakeeper 5 only requires a peak 2Kw on spool up with less when gyro running at full speed. I had a good chat with them on their stand, he said they can use as little at 1Kw at anchor on a relatively calm day. I didn't realise the two hydraulic rams are only active dampers, there's no hydraulic pump to operate them, only valves that control the flow of oil between to the two dampers to force torque on to the hull or not.

They plan to go even smaller too, to cover boats as small as 25'. They're on to a winner, costs can only continue to fall as they produce more, it won't be long before these are standard fit on most boats.

On those 5 points:

2 - I agree. V drives can make good sense on plenty of designs. I don't agree the quitter cruising, unless you define that as being inside. The aft deck noise is greater with v drives, obviously, and in the Med you are more outside than inside

3. True. There is a big unknown out there with big gyros, being the frequency and cost of bearing changes, if lifting gear is needed as in the case of most installations. But this small gyro in the 450 will be lighter, wont need loads of complex lifting gear, and looks a nice installation to me. Of course the seakeepers are very well made so bearing changes should be at long intervals

4. Cummins Onan isn't cheaper than Kohler size for size. Each brand has its aficionados and Ferretti folks swear by Kohler, but most engineers rate the Cummins as better (Kubota engine is better; water pump is direct drive not belt at these sizes, and Onan has always bee the leading innovator in alternator design) but in truth it is all splitting hairs and I'd be happy with either brand if speccing a boat. As regards cost cutting, the absence of margin boards on the teak is quite something for Ferretti - it shouts cost cutting and I'm very surprised they've done it. More emotional than really important though

5. Yep, aiui, a 3.5kw inverter will drive a Seakeeper 5 very happily. If there are not big refrigeration loads also on the inverter, it seems a good move to allow stabilisation underway without running the genset. Good going

 

[Portofino]

2) I like that Ferretti used v-drives, no idea why more manufacturers don't. As you say cruising noise must be reduced with engines that far back.

It's not so much engine position -1-2 m fwd or aft that reduces noise or makes the instal lets call it refined .
It's the fact that with V drives they can use a softer more forgiving engine mounts to reduce vibration /resonance etc .
As its the gearbox that is " hard " mounted ,that is taking the force.
Even the Ferretti Itama 45 -7 L MAN 450's. And the 62 - 1360 hp MANs, are now Vdrive ----so that makes it ok for me
So long as they keep an eye on CoG ( tank position etc ) ,then thsesdays the modern buyer will accept more accomodation along with refinement for a near ish ,but not quite purist /no compromise of central engine striaght shaft low angle setup .
For optimal Cog in regards seakeeping .
At most boat shows of cousrse the boats aren,t moving
Any how well done to Ferretti the latest crop has has the engineering behind the excellent fit n feel .
For JTB all teak is edged on Itama real not veneered- I checked that out

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

As regards cost cutting, the absence of margin boards on the teak is quite something for Ferretti - it shouts cost cutting and I'm very surprised they've done it.

I would not Shout to much it is cost cutting, more spec'd this way. In reality the way teak is put on new production boats it would make little difference if any.

I was on a Hatteras 60 Convertible in one Genoa boat show and shouted What a Shame only to be told it was spec'd that way, and you see it a lot in America as some see it as giving a cleaner look.

 

[TonyR123]

How about trying to Part ex your 12m for a 14or 15 M ( which will accept beam arround 4.6 or more ) for now .
Put your boat in it -sell it over the winter -then buy what you like to fit ?

For those unfamiliar with the W Med scene -that's the problem when changing boats ( diff size ) - one has to jiggle the boat deal and berth deal simultaneously .
The latter being the trickiest

Ah I see what you mean. I wasnt going to try and fit in the 15m boat into a 12m berth (although some are close to that). So I am looking at 15x5m berths. However I had not thought of part ex'ing/selling the 12m berth for a 15m berth now - that is a good point. Buy berth now, move boat over and then sell the 12m berth. Will have two berths for a while I expect, not sure how easy it is to part ex a berth. But still something to consider!

 

[Portofino]

On the F 450 - if I was signing off hull # 1 -I would not have allowed none borderedTeak .
Or if Speccing a new build - have it done properly -otherwise every time I saw it it (and suspect others )reminds me and the world of penny pinching -
Should be an easy fix

 

[MapisM]

The placement of gyro and gyro are spot on, forward of the engines.

Ah, ok, my first impression was correct then.
My doubt was because looking at your pic below I couldn't see the V-drives. Are they directly attached to the engine?
In principle, I tend to prefer the jackshafts used in some old Ferrettis, because that makes the shaft seals reasonably accessible, as opposed to buried under the engine...
I'd be surprised if they fitted side tanks anyway, because I've never seen them on any Ferrettis.
And rightly so, imho - at risk of being flamed by Brit builder supporters...