capnsensible
Well-Known Member
Fog could be a snag though....
Calling for help
- Thread starter DanTribe
- Start date
flaming
Well-Known Member
W3W is a useful thing. But honestly I think it's kind of a pointless step in the evolution of position communicating. On my phone right now I can send someone a W3W as a text, or I can just fire up whatsapp and send them a pin, either a 1 off or a time period of updated tracking. Other messaging apps do the same thing.
Why you need to decode that pin into 3 words, then re enter that into another device as text is beyond me. Just send the pin, and the recipient, or recipients, get a map with your location displayed. Doesn't even have to be your location, you can also send a map position etc if you're trying to indicate delivery instructions to somewhere you aren't actually at. And the recipient can then also move that pin seamlessly into their preferred navigation app and get directions.
Why the emergency services don't seem to be setting up to receive GPS updated positions from callers is beyond me.
winch2
Well-Known Member
Fascinating. So am I to presume by your remark that 95% of boat owners today dont have flares on board in case their pride and joy catches fire?
winch2
Well-Known Member
Who takes a bunch of nooby youngsters racing in fog?
Mark-1
Well-Known Member
No, you can understand that I think flares are not the answer to the question "How should an inexperienced youngster summon help.".
My lad would give his eye teeth to let off an handheld flare (any flare in fact) and I am pretty sure if he ever did he'd immediately drop it in shock and it would melt it's way down through to the sea setting the GRP alight as it went.
And that assumes he a) Worked out how to do it and b) Didn't burn his face off in the attempt.
However, if you're willing to offer your boat for a test I'm sure you'd have literally thousands of youngsters gagging to try it and I'd be genuinely interested to watch the vids.
Poecheng
Well-Known Member
Agree its an evolution and not my area tbh.
Dropping a location from facebook or whatsapp etc totally works if you are in mobile comms with CG (I dont know if they would give you a mobile number? I expect they dont want it to be bombarded with unsolicited messages once people become aware of that number) but you might be in VHF range but way outside mobile data range. You can say the three words over VHF at least and it will work. Yes, they would have to punch it into their phone app. If they were in data communication and were provided with a link, they just press on the link and state which of their mapping apps they want to use.
I have seen emergency sat coverage icon on my phone when out of data range but haven't needed to use it; I expect it is voice to emergency services only rather than data?
[70521]
Well-Known Member
EEEKK, that answers my question.
jbweston
Well-Known Member
Is it just the Mayday procedure you're raising here? I assume you have the rest of the safety briefing under control. I have written checklists in my crew/skipper checklist folder that I do line-by-line with inexperienced crew new to the boat and in progressively less detail the more experienced the crew and the greater their familiarity with the boat. But even then letting them read through it can jog their memory to ask where the first aid kit or gas tap is.
Usually I find - admittedly with adults - that the VHF Mayday procedure holds inexperienced crews' interest much better than the arguably even more essential bits about gas safety and not falling overboard, etc. It seems that the idea of the skipper (me) having a heart attack or the boat catching fire appeals to the imagination and motivates more than less exciting (but equally deadly) problems, so that encourages interest in the VHF procedure.
I do have the VHF procedure on a placard near the VHF - a standard template but tailored to the specifics of our boat and model of VHF.
The great thing about a DSC Mayday is that it passes most of what the CG is going to want including those pesky lat/long numbers without any possibilty of error. I'm in the camp that would definitely advise a DSC VHF Mayday rather than a 999 or flare but in some circumstances just use what seems best at the time. Even arm waving and shouting can be the best thing to do if there others close by. A checklist is an excellent framework but adding common sense and flexibility makes it even better.
I always tell inexperienced crew that their number one priority is not going overboard and anything much beyond that is a bonus.
DFL1010
Well-Known Member
My main dislike with W3W is that the words themselves are meaningless.
If I tell you that my location is 50°46'00.0"N 1°18'00.0"W, and yours is 50°46'00.0"N 1°17'00.0"W, you can instantly tell that we're pretty close. However, if I tell you I am at ///establish.driven.added and your location is ///mandolin.strongly.task, how far is that?
Lat/long isn't perfect for this application by any stretch, but at least it has meaning behind it.
DFL1010
Well-Known Member
Nothing to stop one putting the ship's set on 16 and having a handheld on the regatta channel though.
Rappey
Well-Known Member
For a lot of people using paddleboards, kayaks etc and who lack knowledge of seamanship a mobile is a very usefull device as once youve made a call its location can be triangulated . A vhf is certainly more beneficial in a busy area but you have to do a exam and buy a vhf. Everyone already has a mobile phone.
A fair number of yachts have their vhf at the chart table so its sometimes more convinient to use a mobile at the helm.
A decent mobile phone now has the ability to connect to satellites. Starlink claim before the years out many countries will be able to use the service. Currently its text base only in usa, nz and ukraine but will soon be voice and then internet.. its $10 a month in usa.
So vhf or mobile ? Depends on circumstances and location.
A fair number of yachts have their vhf at the chart table so its sometimes more convinient to use a mobile at the helm.
A decent mobile phone now has the ability to connect to satellites. Starlink claim before the years out many countries will be able to use the service. Currently its text base only in usa, nz and ukraine but will soon be voice and then internet.. its $10 a month in usa.
So vhf or mobile ? Depends on circumstances and location.
ylop
Well-Known Member
Actually the assumption in the OP that children would be happy talking on the phone is probably misplaced. Hiring people under 30 to make / receive phone calls is hard.
Agreed - that would probably be a lie though! You call mayday, and whilst you are still being walked through "silly" questions someone more senior is deciding what help to deploy and then the launch authority is being requested for help and then the crew are getting paged - they usually haven't launched. I think the ambulance service say "my colleague is organising assistance for you, but if you can give me extra information it will help the team coming to you". I agree that would be reassuring.
it is not 100% full proof. Usually an error results in no location or an impossible location but it can result in one that is credible. It does assume the caller can read/speak english and that any accents, wind noise etc don't drown it out. If only there was a way to have your radio linked to your GPS and send its location for you ;-). If it’s spotted as an error you will be asked to spell the words which will take just defeats any benefit from lat/lon especially if you don’t know the phonetic alphabet.
I’m not averse to W3W I actually think it is quite useful if the are printed instructions and you need to type in a location.
Firstly triangulating a mobile phone is not fast. (I don’t know if CG have power to do it or need to ask police).
Secondly it’s not very precise.
Thirdly in rural areas it may not be possible at all - to triangulate you need at least two masts in range.
It’s much more likely you’ll be asked to click a link in a text. Whether you can do that on a phone with cold wet hands without destroying the phone is a different question.
You can triangulate/direction find a VHF. They are usually very waterproof and not exam is required if only used in emergency (although might be a good idea).
The op is asking for a situation with multiple crew. The wind noise will definitely be better down below.
A top of the range one! If you can afford that you can afford a h/h vhf.
ylop
Well-Known Member
So just include in your briefing not to worry as nobody has ever been told off for radio procedure in a distress situation.
Ok so it wasn’t actually life and death - perhaps by making a bit of a barrier to a “tow” they make people seek easier options first? There are question they ask like call sign which are pointless but a lot of it is actually mildly helpful.
No more than any other instantaneous position. A W3W + heading and speed would be one option (although I think odd at sea) but if you were to call an ambulance a W3W for the pontoon might be easier for them than lat/lon
ylop
Well-Known Member
Probably the most important thing is they don’t call their mum!
A few days ago a person was difficulty in the water off Bo’ness, Firth of Forth. A passer-by, rather than call 999, phoned her husband who was in the South of England. He then called 999 but asked for the police (in England) - who took the details and relayed them to the CG. At some point someone in that chain understood it to be Bowness, Windermere and half the rescue assets in NW England descended on the Lake. Only after considerable effort, inconvenience and no doubt expense did the cock up emerge. Fortunately for the woman in the sea other people had also seen her and called 999 and asked for the CG, and she was rescued.
A few days ago a person was difficulty in the water off Bo’ness, Firth of Forth. A passer-by, rather than call 999, phoned her husband who was in the South of England. He then called 999 but asked for the police (in England) - who took the details and relayed them to the CG. At some point someone in that chain understood it to be Bowness, Windermere and half the rescue assets in NW England descended on the Lake. Only after considerable effort, inconvenience and no doubt expense did the cock up emerge. Fortunately for the woman in the sea other people had also seen her and called 999 and asked for the CG, and she was rescued.
DFL1010
Well-Known Member
I'm no expert on the matter but I believe that 999 doesn't now 'triangulate' in the traditional sense, but they use the onboard GPS chip (of course this assumes the phone has a GPS, but I'm not sure how easy it is to find a phone without these days).
In looking this up I found this interesting slide deck from the Ambulance service: https://www.secamb.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/220839-FOI-AML-W3W-references-etc.pdf which also touches on W3W, and this presser (UK shows the way towards accurate caller location – An example for others to replicate! – EENA) about AML.
ylop
Well-Known Member
Thanks - I hadn’t realised that it was in widespread use. Local mountain rescue team still quite often using SarLoc (in their reports) so either not all phones are working well of the police aren’t good at capturing the location and passing it on. You’d hope that as CG probably get a lot more “don’t know where I am” calls that they would have it switched on.
penberth3
Well-Known Member
OK, three words that can be misread, mispronounced, misheard. So it doesn't succeed admirably. And it's all based on an on-line system that might not be 100% reliable and as a private undertaking could be switched off anytime. We've already got OS Grid, Lat/Long, bearing and distance off ,which work fine on land and sea.
Boathook
Well-Known Member
Got rid of the flares on board. A lot of boats have done or doing the same. The majority of incidents are reported by mobile phone or vhf.
Also when I had flares on board, they had different ways of setting them off, which I found confusing, let alone someone who had never seen them before.
Boathook
Well-Known Member
My Google phone calls it emergency location service, ELS. Default seems to be on.
Interesting thread, and I've learnt something, though whether I remember it is another matter !
Juan Twothree
Well-Known Member
I find W3W works well in written form, but when spoken there is potential for it to go wrong, with words misheard or misspelt.
When you I hear a VHF call with someone spelling out the three words phonetically, I often think it would be easier just to give a lat and long.