Calling for help

[capnsensible]

Like I said, practice. And I mentioned upthread I took novice sailors to sea for a living. It was very much 8n my own interests too to ensure someone can make a mayday call using a very simple procedure. And to reinforce that initial learning every day with a brief practice. It's simple.

Dsc. One button. How much simpler can you get than that?

 

[capnsensible]

To get the crew happy with the radio, go down the pontoon with your HandHeld or anywhere away from the boat, and call them say on channel 6, and have a good old practice on'Talking on the Radio'
It's how I got my Missus happy to use the Radio, as she was terrified before, and just froze up, on the Mic.

That's part of the problem I agree with. Too nervous to talk. Common problem. Practice!

 

[capnsensible]

The issue is not how experienced offshore sailors call a mayday. The issue is what instructions can you give to inexperienced sailors that mean if you go over the side or are otherwise incapacitated they can get you the help that you need.

What, I think, has changed in recent years is that everyone owns a fantastically powerful communication and location device of their own. That is, in some ways, completely transformative from when only the navigator knew "ish" the position. Even the act of reading out GPS positions over the radio or phone is now negated.

Sure, there are limitations. having a signal is the obvious one, though a lot of phones will now revert to starlink in an emergency and allow you to call 999 / 112 etc. But to dismiss the potential power of the device that every one of your new crew own, and know how to use, is perhaps missing an opportunity.
Would I, personally, reach for my phone in a mayday situation on the boat? No.
Would I prefer that my non sailing mate I've taken out for the day uses the device he's familiar with to give the coastguard a position in a format that he understands and is accurate if I fall over the side rather than trying to communicate a lat/long that he's unfamiliar with, that he's reading from a chart plotter that he's unfamiliar with over the VHF that he's never used before ? Yes, probably. That sounds like it has a much higher chance of success in a high stress situation.

There are so many banana skins in a traditional mayday for the inexperienced in a high stress situation. The classics are not being on the right channel, being on low power, reading the position of the cursor on the chart plotter instead of the boat's position, forgetting to let go of the transmit button etc etc...

Teach people how to use the Radio.

 

[winch2]

Even arm waving and shouting can be the best thing to do if there others close by. A checklist is an excellent framework but adding common sense and flexibility makes it even better.

Agree. That was probably the crux of my convoluted point re setting off a flare, which yes I agree is dangerous, however when it hits the fan and you cant get a signal and the CG are yapping on and on and on... you will do anything to save the poor sod who's in dire straights and if that means making noise, looking crazy or making smoke then you do everything in your power to affect a positive outcome. Incidentally, I know quite a few capable and sensible teenagers who I would have no hesitation in instructing on the deployment of smoke.

 

[flaming]

Like I said, practice. And I mentioned upthread I took novice sailors to sea for a living. It was very much 8n my own interests too to ensure someone can make a mayday call using a very simple procedure. And to reinforce that initial learning every day with a brief practice. It's simple.

Dsc. One button. How much simpler can you get than that?

I also did that, much more briefly...

The huge difference is that when you take novice sailors to sea for a living, they're there specifically to learn. And spending time practicing this is both expected and part of learning to sail. And as you exactly say, to reinforce with daily repetition.

When you're just taking a mate out for a casual day sail, it is different. And whilst I 100% do show everyone how to use the VHF, I'm also really aware of the pitfalls in asking a complete non sailor to do a mayday. I tried it once. After a couple of hours I asked the non sailor to talk me through a mayday. He couldn't remember how to get the position from the chartplotter, or that it was CH16 he needed. So these days I also say to complete newbies "if in doubt dial 999 and give them W3W". Because I know that where we're sailing there is plenty of signal and this will work.

Look - I agree entirely that in the vast, vast majority of situations an experienced person, using the VHF correctly to give positions in lat/long or distance and bearing from a defined point, whether DSC or otherwise, is by far and away the best method of summoning help.

But I also think that ignoring the power of the device in everyone's pocket, a device that they already know how to use, is not using all of the resources available to us in the best way to get the best possible outcome. Especially, and particularly, where the person using it is stressed because you're out of action and they're inexperienced with lat/long, your chartplotter, and VHF.

 

[KevinV]

Not always. If I go for an unscheduled swim, leaving a rather panicked Madame aboard, the best I can hope for is that she'll hit the red button and, maybe, keep me in sight.

I've always felt sailing away from the casualty would raise stress levels of those not capable of bringing the boat back - hence teaching them to stop the boat first.

 

[capnsensible]

I also did that, much more briefly...

The huge difference is that when you take novice sailors to sea for a living, they're there specifically to learn. And spending time practicing this is both expected and part of learning to sail. And as you exactly say, to reinforce with daily repetition.

When you're just taking a mate out for a casual day sail, it is different. And whilst I 100% do show everyone how to use the VHF, I'm also really aware of the pitfalls in asking a complete non sailor to do a mayday. I tried it once. After a couple of hours I asked the non sailor to talk me through a mayday. He couldn't remember how to get the position from the chartplotter, or that it was CH16 he needed. So these days I also say to complete newbies "if in doubt dial 999 and give them W3W". Because I know that where we're sailing there is plenty of signal and this will work.

Look - I agree entirely that in the vast, vast majority of situations an experienced person, using the VHF correctly to give positions in lat/long or distance and bearing from a defined point, whether DSC or otherwise, is by far and away the best method of summoning help.

But I also think that ignoring the power of the device in everyone's pocket, a device that they already know how to use, is not using all of the resources available to us in the best way to get the best possible outcome. Especially, and particularly, where the person using it is stressed because you're out of action and they're inexperienced with lat/long, your chartplotter, and VHF.

Agree with a lot of what you say apart from 'everyone has one in their pocket'. To talk to one person. Not everyone at sea I a range of over 20 miles. Except of course the usual suspects who don't keep a listening watch on 16 because it 'disturbs them'.

So I'm gonna go with the established protocols that Coastguards worldwide want us to use to help them help us.

And what a wonderful thing gps has turned out to be for safety at sea. No idea what the next leap forward will be, but it's gotta be recognised and used internationally, so I'm not holding my breath.

Part of the short safety brief I used to give to 12 people at a time on a charter boat was to tell them that in the event of an emergency, we are fitted with a marine radio that myself and my crew know how to use. Good for morale.

Edit to add: personal and vessel beacons are quite common now.....

 

[ylop]

There are so many banana skins in a traditional mayday for the inexperienced in a high stress situation. The classics are not being on the right channel, being on low power, reading the position of the cursor on the chart plotter instead of the boat's position, forgetting to let go of the transmit button etc etc...

But none of those banana skins apply to lift a flap and hold a button down.

 

[ylop]

Disagree.

Calling the club safety officer first means getting straight through to someone who

1. Is already afloat on a rib
2. Has good local knowledge as to where you might be based on rapid info like "in the mouth of the Roach"
3. Has almost certainly had pre event communication with the emergency services and agreed procedures etc

My suspicion is that you'd get a faster response that way.

Well I don’t know the club or the individuals involved but if it is a genuine mayday and I happen to be sailing nearby and happen to have my ex-Flying Doctor crew (as happens from time to time) on board we might be more use than anyone (depending on emergency). We aren’t in your race so won’t be listening to your channel. We won’t hear a 999 call from the club safety officer when he realises this incident is beyond his skills, or that he has too many incidents simultaneously.

I am sure there are many incidents a club safety boat is the right person to call first - but not all of them. Assuming he has DSC on his vessel he’ll get a distress alert simultaneously with the CG. He can still be first on scene and render the same assistance - if that is enough the lifeboat etc can probably be stood down before it actually launches.

 

[Mark-1]

But none of those banana skins apply to lift a flap and hold a button down.

Maybe not, but they can do that while they're hitting their power button 5 times to dial 999. And talking to someone means they know the message got through.

....and this is all academic because the person doing this is going to do what feels right to them, not what someone told them in the middle of a 15 minute lecture 3 hours ago.

 

[flaming]

So I'm gonna go with the established protocols that Coastguards worldwide want us to use to help them help us.

Yes. As I've said a hundred times.

But this isn't about what you'd do. Or what I'd do. Which for the avoidance of all doubt are the same thing.

It's about how someone completely unfamiliar with all of those protocols can best summon help. Not someone 20 miles out to sea. Not someone on a course. But someone who I've invited out just for one sunny day on the Solent.
And I'm sticking to my opinion that using what they know is going to have a better chance of success than getting someone utterly unfamiliar with my chart plotter, my VHF, coastguard procedures etc to do a mayday call.

 

[flaming]

But none of those banana skins apply to lift a flap and hold a button down.

If you have a DSC radio.....

Not all do. I'm on the verge of uninstalling mine because the stupid alarm is louder than anything and goes off continuously and we have to send someone down to turn the bloody thing off so we can hear each other talk, someone who should be sailing the boat, and it always goes off just as we're coming into a mark. And it then retunes the radio to 16 away from what we actually want to hear. Then goes off 5 more times whilst the coastguard update us about a broken down motorboat 50 miles away.

And even if you do all that, you still need to talk to the coastguard to tell them what is wrong, and then certain of those banana skins apply.

 

[Juan Twothree]

Yeah, there is one particular incident that sticks in my mind and I find quite distressing to recall. You can hear the fear and frustration in the casualty.

It's very frustrating for the CG too, having to ask inane questions.

However while they are doing so, assets will be being assigned and tasked in the background.

Or should be.

 

[ylop]

If you have a DSC radio.....

Not all do. I'm on the verge of uninstalling mine

I’ll be blunt anyone who regularly sails with inexperienced crew who doesn’t spend £150 on a DSC radio (or rips one out) only has themselves to blame if their crew don’t make a quick effective distress call or the find working out how to brief their crew to be too hard!

because the stupid alarm is louder than anything and goes off continuously

If I was somewhere that was an issue I’d have a remote station at the helm.

And it then retunes the radio to 16 away from what we actually want to hear.

Sounds like you need a second radio rather than replacing the DSC.

Then goes off 5 more times whilst the coastguard update us about a broken down motorboat 50 miles away.

Modern sets let you turn off some of the alarms.

And even if you do all that, you still need to talk to the coastguard to tell them what is wrong, and then certain of those banana skins apply.

Which ones? Because after a red button your radio will ch16 high power and you can configure most to display your lat lon too.

Maybe not, but they can do that while they're hitting their power button 5 times to dial 999. And talking to someone means they know the message got through.

You could introduce people to that feature - although you’d need to check their phone model supported it.

....and this is all academic because the person doing this is going to do what feels right to them, not what someone told them in the middle of a 15 minute lecture 3 hours ago.

Well that is a good point - but that’s why people call their mum!

 

[capnsensible]

Yes. As I've said a hundred times.

But this isn't about what you'd do. Or what I'd do. Which for the avoidance of all doubt are the same thing.

It's about how someone completely unfamiliar with all of those protocols can best summon help. Not someone 20 miles out to sea. Not someone on a course. But someone who I've invited out just for one sunny day on the Solent.
And I'm sticking to my opinion that using what they know is going to have a better chance of success than getting someone utterly unfamiliar with my chart plotter, my VHF, coastguard procedures etc to do a mayday call.

Lift this flap. Press button.....

 

[flaming]

Well I don’t know the club or the individuals involved but if it is a genuine mayday and I happen to be sailing nearby and happen to have my ex-Flying Doctor crew (as happens from time to time) on board we might be more use than anyone (depending on emergency). We aren’t in your race so won’t be listening to your channel. We won’t hear a 999 call from the club safety officer when he realises this incident is beyond his skills, or that he has too many incidents simultaneously.

I am sure there are many incidents a club safety boat is the right person to call first - but not all of them. Assuming he has DSC on his vessel he’ll get a distress alert simultaneously with the CG. He can still be first on scene and render the same assistance - if that is enough the lifeboat etc can probably be stood down before it actually launches.

I'm sure I could come up with a dozen different scenarios where the published advice in those SIs would not be the best. But also a dozen more where it's a pretty good bet.

Remember that whilst you "might be sailing past" with your Doctor crew, if I'm in that race I'm listening to the race channel, and without wanting to 1-up, I've often got 2 doctors and a senior member of Hampshire Fire brigade on board... It's way, way more likely that one of the other boats in the same race is going to be closest to any casualty and better equipped to help than a random passer by with a doctor on board.

And of course, you would also expect the coastguard to make a broadcast on 16 if they receive a "mayday" from a phone etc. As they do....

 

[Mark-1]

You could introduce people to that feature

I was using that as shorthand for dialling 999. I won't be telling a teenager or anyone else how to use their phone.

 

[flaming]

Which ones? Because after a red button your radio will ch16 high power and you can configure most to display your lat lon too.

Releasing the transmit button after talking is the biggie for inexperienced people in a panic.

 

[capnsensible]

These days, I sail a bit on friends yachts, no problem, they know what to d9. But more often, I take small groups out of a 25 knot capable motor boat. It takes me a very small amount of time to say if anything happens to me, lift this flap, press the button. Then call whoever you want on your phone.....

 

[capnsensible]

Releasing the transmit button after talking is the biggie for inexperienced people in a panic.

Not if they've been briefed not to......