Buying property and/or boat in France or Spain

[ingenious]

You will need air conditioning in July and August.
Usually this will be reversible and will provide adequate heating for normal winter weather.

One of the things I need to firm up on is what bits of the year I want to be where. I want to be away from UK in the winter. I'd quite like to be back in the summer but it does get very busy ( my cottage overlooks a lovely beach but also a big holiday park). I want to rent it out when I'm not there. Might be able to do the same with the Spain/France place

 

[ashtead]

Many don’t realise the trauma which can be involved in selling a Spanish property - clear one needs an NI type number but also a bank account. Clearly you also need a Spanish will which unlike uk needs to be registered. Right so having engaged an English speaking lawyer to ensure good title,plus the will then you end up paying a theoretical income tax on rental even I’d property isn’t inlet so you need an agent to file a return . Once you die if owning your property then your executor has in addition to finding a selling agent be registered with that NI ,open a local bank account and have documents notarised etc. clearly if in good health then issues reduced but don’t underestimate hassle of selling a Spanish property for your estate leaving aside any title issues,high estate charges etc for services etc. defo buy the boat even if a 3 bed villa in Alicante costs perhaps half the price of your average mobo even if a cheaper marque.

 

[westernman]

My nearest airport is Norwich so flights from there are limited. Driving to Stansted opens up Ryanair to Beziers, Perpignan and Girona as well as BCN

What Ryanair calls Barcelona is nowhere near Barcelona but is reasonably convenient for L'Estartit, Rosas, Empuriabrava etc.

 

[ingenious]

The rig is still out there of course but I believe they haven't pumped ashore for a long time.
That fire you mention was a very long time ago - on the western side of the town - all newly renovated now.

It is still quite a small town - the AP7 runs the other side of the Montsia mountain so the town remains a little cut off.
Within the last couple of years, the locals had an election and decided to rename it to "La Rapita" and drop the Sant Carles bit.
Our marina (the one that you are probably referring to) isn't that big - see this link to a drone virtual tour that I put together.
SCMCHAT 3D Virtual Tour
Google Maps still calls the marina "Sant Carles Marina" but calls the town "La Rapita"
Most of the local signs are now "La Rapita" but we still all refer to it as Sant Carles.

We like it for the reasons that you say above.
Lots of local Spanish events during the year - mostly for the locals.
In the winter months it is a nice quiet place but you have to avoid July and August because it has become a bit of a Spanish holiday destination.
July and August is a bit hot anyway.

Different rig. When I was there they used a semi-sub called Afortunada but I think it was replaced with a permanent platform and the semi was sold back into drilling.
Yes, definitely worth a look, I also want to see Tarragona, again because we used to stay there if the was space issues on the rig.

 

[ingenious]

Anybody know Port-Vendres on the French side? I met a guy tonight who works for David Lloyd Estates and they have a development there 2 Bedroom Apartments in Port Vendres
Not sure if I want to me in a modern apartment block but the town looks nice

 

[westernman]

Anybody know Port-Vendres on the French side? I met a guy tonight who works for David Lloyd Estates and they have a development there 2 Bedroom Apartments in Port Vendres
Not sure if I want to me in a modern apartment block but the town looks nice

Not much going on there. Also I think it will be difficult to get a permanent parking space there.
It is the port where most of the pineapples sold in France are unloaded.

We didn't like it much.

 

[DavidJ]

Many don’t realise the trauma which can be involved in selling a Spanish property - clear one needs an NI type number but also a bank account. Clearly you also need a Spanish will which unlike uk needs to be registered. Right so having engaged an English speaking lawyer to ensure good title,plus the will then you end up paying a theoretical income tax on rental even I’d property isn’t inlet so you need an agent to file a return . Once you die if owning your property then your executor has in addition to finding a selling agent be registered with that NI ,open a local bank account and have documents notarised etc. clearly if in good health then issues reduced but don’t underestimate hassle of selling a Spanish property for your estate leaving aside any title issues,high estate charges etc for services etc. defo buy the boat even if a 3 bed villa in Alicante costs perhaps half the price of your average mobo even if a cheaper marque.

My goodness! This must keep a lot of Spanish legal bods employed

 

[DavidJ]

Anybody know Port-Vendres on the French side? I met a guy tonight who works for David Lloyd Estates and they have a development there 2 Bedroom Apartments in Port Vendres
Not sure if I want to me in a modern apartment block but the town looks nice

It gets a bit windy around the corner in Empuriabrava. Port Vendres is in the thick of the winds that howl through there.
This is a wind pic earlier today

 

[westernman]

My goodness! This must keep a lot of Spanish legal bods employed

I had a great deal of trouble getting a NI number a few years back - but after B-day.
The government office wanted a copy of my passport (no problem), but also wanted a copy of the page with my entry stamp in to Spain.

I did not have an entry stamp. I just drove across the border from where I live in France. I even had the notary agent certify that I was there in Spain the day I signed the documents to create my company there and also the document from the bank certifying that I had deposited the capital for the company. But that was not enough. There had to be a passport stamp.

I actually do not have any EU country stamps in my British passport at all - I never entered into the EU from outside the EU during that time.

It took several weeks before they saw some sense.

I now avoid all that crap as I now have a French passport.

 

[julians]

Just on the topic of selling Spanish property, we just (literally this week) sold a place in Mallorca, and it was pretty straightforward, probably less hassle than selling in the UK.

You just need a lawyer and an estate agent (you don't even need the estate agent if you already have a buyer),no need for Spanish bank account - we used a revolut euro account. the whole process took about 6 weeks from finding the buyer to completing the sale. Very straightforward and we didn't find it a problem at all.

 

[Grubble]

Many don’t realise the trauma which can be involved in selling a Spanish property - clear one needs an NI type number but also a bank account. Clearly you also need a Spanish will which unlike uk needs to be registered. Right so having engaged an English speaking lawyer to ensure good title,plus the will then you end up paying a theoretical income tax on rental even I’d property isn’t inlet so you need an agent to file a return . Once you die if owning your property then your executor has in addition to finding a selling agent be registered with that NI ,open a local bank account and have documents notarised etc. clearly if in good health then issues reduced but don’t underestimate hassle of selling a Spanish property for your estate leaving aside any title issues,high estate charges etc for services etc. defo buy the boat even if a 3 bed villa in Alicante costs perhaps half the price of your average mobo even if a cheaper marque.

Alternatively you enjoy your money while you are alive and leave the beneficiaries of your will to deal with the paperwork when you are dead.

Having just been through dealing with the estate of a family member in the UK, I can tell you it really isn't straightforward in the UK either, but from the point of view of the deceased, it didn't inconvenience them in the slightest.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Alternatively you enjoy your money while you are alive and leave the beneficiaries of your will to deal with the paperwork when you are dead.

Having just been through dealing with the estate of a family member in the UK, I can tell you it really isn't straightforward in the UK either, but from the point of view of the deceased, it didn't inconvenience them in the slightest.

That’s true but if you care about your inheritees then getting it right is important. Bad / sloppy paperwork in Spain isn’t going to be easy to get corrected after you’ve gone.

 

[Grubble]

That’s true but if you care about your inheritees then getting it right is important. Bad / sloppy paperwork in Spain isn’t going to be easy to get corrected after you’ve gone.

Same as for the UK. If you buy a house in the UK you use a conveyancing solicitor, you also draw up a will. I don't know why anyone would do it differently just because they are in Spain.

 

[markc]

When I sold my Spanish house I was given a cheque in the Notary office. I went over the road to a branch of my bank [Bankia] and they refused to accept it because my account was held at another branch. I flew home and called my branch and they said I couldn't post it to them, my only option was to pay it in IN PERSON in Alicante. I posted it to my French bank and it cleared in 48 hours. Just one example of Spanish bureaucratic nonsense. I won't even start on what a pain the NIE was!

 

[westernman]

When I sold my Spanish house I was given a cheque in the Notary office. I went over the road to a branch of my bank [Bankia] and they refused to accept it because my account was held at another branch. I flew home and called my branch and they said I couldn't post it to them, my only option was to pay it in IN PERSON in Alicante. I posted it to my French bank and it cleared in 48 hours. Just one example of Spanish bureaucratic nonsense. I won't even start on what a pain the NIE was!

In France when I sold our house, the money was transferred into our account the minute after we signed all the paperwork in the Notary's office.
It really was no more than a minute or so before our banking app showed the full amount had arrived. At the same time your hand over the keys and the remote to open the gate to the buyers.

If there is an outstanding mortgage, the mortgage is repaid at the same instant and you get the rest minus estate agent's fees and notary fees. Everyone gets there money at exactly the same moment. The notary fees are an estimate and usually slightly more is deducted than needed. Once everything has been formally notified to the tax office and other authorities you get a refund of typically a couple of hundred euros a couple of weeks later.

Similarly when buying, you pay your cash amount into the Notary's escrow account a day or two before signing. The mortgage company does the same, or sometimes they will transfer the money when the Notary calls the bank up and tells them to do it now. All very efficient.

 

[julians]

When I sold my Spanish house I was given a cheque in the Notary office. I went over the road to a branch of my bank [Bankia] and they refused to accept it because my account was held at another branch. I flew home and called my branch and they said I couldn't post it to them, my only option was to pay it in IN PERSON in Alicante. I posted it to my French bank and it cleared in 48 hours. Just one example of Spanish bureaucratic nonsense. I won't even start on what a pain the NIE was!

I think things might have moved on a bit since then ( was it a long time ago?), this week when we sold our place in majorca the notary just transferred the money electronically,it was no hassle.

 

[markc]

I think things might have moved on a bit since then ( was it a long time ago?), this week when we sold our place in majorca the notary just transferred the money electronically,it was no hassle.

Not so long ago - 2018. Hopefully things have moved on

 

[Hurricane]

Many don’t realise the trauma which can be involved in selling a Spanish property - clear one needs an NI type number but also a bank account. Clearly you also need a Spanish will which unlike uk needs to be registered. Right so having engaged an English speaking lawyer to ensure good title,plus the will then you end up paying a theoretical income tax on rental even I’d property isn’t inlet so you need an agent to file a return . Once you die if owning your property then your executor has in addition to finding a selling agent be registered with that NI ,open a local bank account and have documents notarised etc. clearly if in good health then issues reduced but don’t underestimate hassle of selling a Spanish property for your estate leaving aside any title issues,high estate charges etc for services etc. defo buy the boat even if a 3 bed villa in Alicante costs perhaps half the price of your average mobo even if a cheaper marque.

I understand that in Spain, there is no Inheritance Tax Relief between husband and wife so if you are married and one of you dies, the other can end up with a tax bill.
I may be wrong though.

 

[westernman]

I understand that in Spain, there is no Inheritance Tax Relief between husband and wife so if you are married and one of you dies, the other can end up with a tax bill.
I may be wrong though.

By default in France and Spain you will be "tenants in common". If one of you dies, the other married partner inherits part of the dead person's share of the property and rest (1/2 to 3/4) is divided up between the kids.

A surviving wife/husband does not have any tax to pay in France and gets 100% use of all the properties and bank account but does not own 100%.

A will cannot override the minimum rights of the kids which are 1/2 if for one kid, 1/3 each for two kids, and 3/4 divided up between all the kids if there are 3 or more. There are some complications with the right to use vs ownership. Basically a surviving wife/husband gets exclusive use of properties owned by the couple (usufruit) while the kids will actually own (nue-propriete) the majority of it (1/2 to 3/4).

Note that this also applies to a bank account which will be split in the usufruit for the surviving wife/husband and nue-propriete for the kids.
I.e. the money belongs to the kids but they can't spend it. And the interest payments belong to the surviving wife/husband who can spend the interest but not the capital. When the surviving wife/husband dies, the kids then get to divide up the account in equal shares between them and use the money as they wish.

If you want your married partner to get the whole property you should acquire it as "joint tenants". In France this is called "en tontine". Wills then do not come into it.

Whatever happens you cannot escape the tax bill. It used to be, a long time ago, with ownership "en tontine" there was no tax bill as the remaining parties were assumed to be owners of the property as if the dead person never existed.

The tax bill is established for each person who inherits some thing separately. (I.e. there is no tax on the estate). The taxes vary according to the closeness of the relationship. If there is no relationship, then the tax to pay is 60% of the inherited amount.

Kids get to deduct 100K, and then pay on a sliding scale from 5% to 45% (> 1.8 million).

Death is big business and complicated.
Particularly if divorced and re-married with kids from both marriages etc etc.

Spend it all before you die.

 

[jfm]

@Hurricane, Yup. There are some small reliefs but yes you are correct that one dies owning Spanish situs assets, the other can end up with a tax bill.