Buying property and/or boat in France or Spain

[ingenious]

Since I last posted at any length, I have had quiet a rethink on what I want to do for the next few years and the living on a boat cruising Europe isn't going to work so I am now looking at actually buying a property somewhere as well as a boat to use there.
The areas I am thinking of are the Langedoc Coast of France or the Catalonia Coast of Spain
I have holidayed in the former before and I worked in the latter for some time many years ago. My youngest son and his partner have an apartment in Stiges which I am going to use for a couple of weeks after my current sojourn in Gran Canaria (I did consider the Canaries but boating is very much yacht focused here rather than powerboat/cruiser and travelling to mainland Europe from here isn't really practical.)so itwill give me a chance to update my 30 years old experience

So, any pros /cons for either area from users here?
From a personal point of view I speak better French than Spanish and prefer French cuisine (although the seafood is great in both areas)
Both give the option to travel to the other, France gives the option of going to the canals or the Côte D’Azur, Spain the Balearics or further south

I understand boat ownership is taxed in France if you are resident (regardless of nationality), How long do you need to spend in France to be considered resident? Is it 183 days like UK? I have British and Dutch passports (my mother was from Dutch New Guinea) so 90days rule doesn't apply
Is there anything similar in Spain?
As far as property goes, I have a friend who last year bought one of the “Betty Blue” houses in Guissan-Plage and, although I don't want anything that quirky, he recommended the estate agent in Narbonne he used.
For Spain, my son used a guy in Barcelona but was less enthusiastic about him. Got the job done but a lot of misunderstandings and delays (and extra costs). So any recommendations gratefully received
As far as boats are concerned, I still want something that could be lived in for several weeks rather than semi permanently and more coast than river orientated. Met a guy in Las Palmas who had a Nimbus 305 and was quite impressed with that (and he had brought it all the way from Sweden over the past 2 years!) but hope to look at some more while I am in Spain and may take a trip up into France. I guess it doesn't matter where I buy as I will have to reregister in UK for insurance if I am not resident in the other country.

 

[markc]

Suggest you buy a boat first, then you can try out an area before buying property, especially as property in both countries can be difficult to sell quickly / easily. Also, when you buy a property, be guided on the property and location, not if you like the estate agent... you're not marrying them

 

[DavidJ]

Sitges, as you know, has a lovely marina and IF you can get a spot, not a bad starting point for your adventure.
We love Catalonia and had a boat in Empuriabrava for 20 years. Great cruising ground in that northern area of Cap de Creus.
Empuriabrava is based on a canal system so very sheltered in the winter. It’s big so all the facilities all year round BUT August is horrendous when the whole of Europe turns up.
Other marinas are San Margarida, Estartit, Rosas, L’Escala.
You can buy a property with mooring outside or rent but be aware of height restrictions due to bridges.
Cruising area

 

[ingenious]

Sitges, as you know, has a lovely marina and IF you can get a spot, not a bad starting point for your adventure.
We love Catalonia and had a boat in Empuriabrava for 20 years. Great cruising ground in that northern area of Cap de Creus.
Empuriabrava is based on a canal system so very sheltered in the winter. It’s big so all the facilities all year round BUT August is horrendous when the whole of Europe turns up.
Other marinas are San Margarida, Estartit, Rosas, L’Escala.
You can buy a property with mooring outside or rent but be aware of height restrictions due to bridges.
Cruising areaView attachment 190058

View attachment 190060

That looks really lovely. Nearest I've been was Roses where we stopped for dinner after we had visited the Dali museum in Figueres

 

[ingenious]

Suggest you buy a boat first, then you can try out an area before buying property, especially as property in both countries can be difficult to sell quickly / easily. Also, when you buy a property, be guided on the property and location, not if you like the estate agent... you're not marrying them

 

[Ray Purchase]

Have a look at the following for Spanish property https://www.idealista.com/en/

 

[DavidJ]

That looks really lovely. Nearest I've been was Roses where we stopped for dinner after we had visited the Dali museum in Figueres

Ah yes the Dali Museum. We have taken visiting friends so many times we could almost be tour guides.
Dali’s house is in Port Lligat which you can see on the photo (just). Really wacky!

I remember when I first started on this forum a couple of decades ago there was an old chap who told the story of, in the past, mooring in Port Lligat and asking Dali if he could fill from his water tap. (Which Dali allowed him to do)

 

[ingenious]

Suggest you buy a boat first, then you can try out an area before buying property, especially as property in both countries can be difficult to sell quickly / easily. Also, when you buy a property, be guided on the property and location, not if you like the estate agent... you're not marrying them

Yes, I was thinking of renting/ long Airbnb before committing. I have my son's place for 2 weeks but, much as I like Sitges, it's very busy in the summer and being a lone, straight guy can lead to misunderstandings

 

[markc]

Yes, I was thinking of renting/ long Airbnb before committing. I have my son's place for 2 weeks but, much as I like Sitges, it's very busy in the summer and being a lone, straight guy can lead to misunderstandings

From experience ( I owned a house in Spain for 12 years), I think getting the boaty part correct first is most important. For example, the reason why I sold the house in Spain, rather than putting the boat there, was that the area wasn't great for boating. You'll also have the chance to see if the transport links work for you. For example, I personally think Empuriabrava looks great, and lots of lovely calas to explore, but being so far from BCN wouldn't be great for me. Get the boat sorted then find where you like being, then buy teh house. You might even decide you'd rather have a larger boat and no house... just one set of bills & maintenance demands!

 

[Hurricane]

We have had our boat in Spain now for about 17 years.
When we were younger, my parents bought a seafront villa in Las Fuentes (about 25 miles south of Catalonia).
I remember lots of problems when my parents came to sell the villa but we liked that area of Spain.
So when Sant Carles opened, we were first in the queue to buy a berth.
Since then, I now definitely wouldn't buy a villa - the boat is comfortable - the marina has a swimming pool for the kids etc.
Remember, you can move a boat - not so with a villa.
My parents did have some friends in Las Fuentes but nothing like the marina based friends that we have in Sant Carles.
For example, I Whatsapp'd one of our live aboard friends this morning, saying that I was going out for a few days, starting this Saturday.
They immediately replied with an invite to dinner Saturday evening.
So one thing to consider is - any local community that you can integrate into.
IMHO, a marina is a good place to start that integration.

From a boating perspective, I think that most of the Catalonian coast is a bit exposed.
Sant Carles is nicely protected by its lagoon so we are a bit spoiled.
We have had cruising holidays all along the mainland coast from Denia to the French Riviera.
But we tend to go across to the Balearics if we want to find the best spots.

One cruise, we went north east and based ourselves around Roses marina.
To be honest, I was a bit disappointed - it was during August and the seas were rough - not weather related - just stirred up by the sheer numbers of boats heading out from Empuriabrava.
We did have a good time but only really managed to get the boat out of Roses for one good day.
That day, we left the marina at crack of dawn and headed for Cap de Creus.
This is a video of that day

So, you can see that it can be nice but, IMO, most of the time it is very exposed to man made swell and, of course the Mistrals.
After that trip, it was really nice to get back to the tranquillity of our home lagoon and the much cheaper, laid back lifestyle of Sant Carles.

 

[ingenious]

Sitges, as you know, has a lovely marina and IF you can get a spot, not a bad starting point for your adventure.
We love Catalonia and had a boat in Empuriabrava for 20 years. Great cruising ground in that northern area of Cap de Creus.
Empuriabrava is based on a canal system so very sheltered in the winter. It’s big so all the facilities all year round BUT August is horrendous when the whole of Europe turns up.
Other marinas are San Margarida, Estartit, Rosas, L’Escala.
You can buy a property with mooring outside or rent but be aware of height restrictions due to bridges.
Cruising areaView attachment 190058

View attachment 190060

Funnily enough, the very first house that came up on the link posted by someone else in in Empuriabrava
https://www.idealista.com/en/inmueble/106318197/
I hadn't realised the town was quite so big but good for being active year round - I want to avoid places that are purely summer season tourist havens. I large part of the plan is to escape Norfolk in the winter!
Do you have heating in your house? I noticed quite a few I looked at online don't.

 

[ingenious]

We have had our boat in Spain now for about 17 years.
When we were younger, my parents bought a seafront villa in Las Fuentes (about 25 miles south of Catalonia).
I remember lots of problems when my parents came to sell the villa but we liked that area of Spain.
So when Sant Carles opened, we were first in the queue to buy a berth.
Since then, I now definitely wouldn't buy a villa - the boat is comfortable - the marina has a swimming pool for the kids etc.
Remember, you can move a boat - not so with a villa.
My parents did have some friends in Las Fuentes but nothing like the marina based friends that we have in Sant Carles.
For example, I Whatsapp'd one of our live aboard friends this morning, saying that I was going out for a few days, starting this Saturday.
They immediately replied with an invite to dinner Saturday evening.
So one thing to consider is - any local community that you can integrate into.
IMHO, a marina is a good place to start that integration.

From a boating perspective, I think that most of the Catalonian coast is a bit exposed.
Sant Carles is nicely protected by its lagoon so we are a bit spoiled.
We have had cruising holidays all along the mainland coast from Denia to the French Riviera.
But we tend to go across to the Balearics if we want to find the best spots.

One cruise, we went north east and based ourselves around Roses marina.
To be honest, I was a bit disappointed - it was during August and the seas were rough - not weather related - just stirred up by the sheer numbers of boats heading out from Empuriabrava.
We did have a good time but only really managed to get the boat out of Roses for one good day.
That day, we left the marina at crack of dawn and headed for Cap de Creus.
This is a video of that day

So, you can see that it can be nice but, IMO, most of the time it is very exposed to man made swell and, of course the Mistrals.
After that trip, it was really nice to get back to the tranquillity of our home lagoon and the much cheaper, laid back lifestyle of Sant Carles.

Thanks for this. Sant Carles is one of the places I had planned to visit while I am in Sitges. Many years ago it was called San Carlos de Rapita and we used to run supply boats out to the rig I was working on from there. It was just a fishing village that had a bigger jetty and services facilities added but I had heard they had built a huge marina.
I think they changed the name to get away from association with that huge tanker fire that happend a year or so before I was there.

 

[ingenious]

From experience ( I owned a house in Spain for 12 years), I think getting the boaty part correct first is most important. For example, the reason why I sold the house in Spain, rather than putting the boat there, was that the area wasn't great for boating. You'll also have the chance to see if the transport links work for you. For example, I personally think Empuriabrava looks great, and lots of lovely calas to explore, but being so far from BCN wouldn't be great for me. Get the boat sorted then find where you like being, then buy teh house. You might even decide you'd rather have a larger boat and no house... just one set of bills & maintenance demands!

It's only about 2 hours from BCN according to Google?
The large boat and live on it was my initial plan if you look back in my posts but I had a bit of a health scare which put me off that. A couple of weeks at a time I think is best for now.

 

[DavidJ]

It's only about 2 hours from BCN according to Google?
The large boat and live on it was my initial plan if you look back in my posts but I had a bit of a health scare which put me off that. A couple of weeks at a time I think is best for now.

Also for us in Birmingham there are flights to Gerona and Perpignan which are just over an hour away from Empuriabrava. That said we preferred to fly to BCN (Barcelona Airport) because it was cheaper and a better choice of flight times (I don’t like getting up early)

 

[Hurricane]

Thanks for this. Sant Carles is one of the places I had planned to visit while I am in Sitges. Many years ago it was called San Carlos de Rapita and we used to run supply boats out to the rig I was working on from there. It was just a fishing village that had a bigger jetty and services facilities added but I had heard they had built a huge marina.
I think they changed the name to get away from association with that huge tanker fire that happend a year or so before I was there.

The rig is still out there of course but I believe they haven't pumped ashore for a long time.
That fire you mention was a very long time ago - on the western side of the town - all newly renovated now.

It is still quite a small town - the AP7 runs the other side of the Montsia mountain so the town remains a little cut off.
Within the last couple of years, the locals had an election and decided to rename it to "La Rapita" and drop the Sant Carles bit.
Our marina (the one that you are probably referring to) isn't that big - see this link to a drone virtual tour that I put together.
SCMCHAT 3D Virtual Tour
Google Maps still calls the marina "Sant Carles Marina" but calls the town "La Rapita"
Most of the local signs are now "La Rapita" but we still all refer to it as Sant Carles.

We like it for the reasons that you say above.
Lots of local Spanish events during the year - mostly for the locals.
In the winter months it is a nice quiet place but you have to avoid July and August because it has become a bit of a Spanish holiday destination.
July and August is a bit hot anyway.

 

[westernman]

From experience ( I owned a house in Spain for 12 years), I think getting the boaty part correct first is most important. For example, the reason why I sold the house in Spain, rather than putting the boat there, was that the area wasn't great for boating. You'll also have the chance to see if the transport links work for you. For example, I personally think Empuriabrava looks great, and lots of lovely calas to explore, but being so far from BCN wouldn't be great for me. Get the boat sorted then find where you like being, then buy teh house. You might even decide you'd rather have a larger boat and no house... just one set of bills & maintenance demands!

Barcelona area, not so interesting from a sailing perspective. The nice bits of the coast are further up with the Rosas bay being pretty much in the middle of the nice bit. Of course there is something special about hoisting your sails in front the statue of Christopher Columbus.

The are plenty of interesting things in the hills behind the Rosas bay with medieval towns, hill top monasteries etc. The town of Girona is not far away and is interesting. Although much smaller than Barcelona of course.

Generally the weather is not that great for sailing. It is either calm or blowing a gale or more unless you head offshore - e.g. to the Minorca which is an easily doable crossing with the right weather.

House prices vary in both Spain and France. If in the middle of nowhere, there are some real bargains to be had. But re-sale is probably almost impossible. In places with a sea view, you can expect it to cost an arm and a leg. In France, both arms and both legs.

In France (and this might apply to Spain) be very careful about the "compromis de vente". It is a legally binding contract which will be very hard to get out of (and may be extremely expensive to get out of). You absolutely must have all your get out clauses integrated into that contract before signing it.

I would not use an Estate Agent to look for you. As a rule they are extremely local and have relatively few things for sale. It will also cost you a lot as well for the privilege and you could well end up paying even if you found the property yourself (because they sent you a list of 100s of properties from the standard websites which included the property you ended up buying). You are better off looking on those standard web-sites yourself. They will have pretty much everything which is up for sale in there anyway.

We kept our boat in Rosas and L'Estartit for many years. We like the area and there is always something to do if it is blowing a gale. If not, we have the engine! In L'Estartit we had a berth almost next to the beach.

 

[DavidJ]

Funnily enough, the very first house that came up on the link posted by someone else in in Empuriabrava
https://www.idealista.com/en/inmueble/106318197/
I hadn't realised the town was quite so big but good for being active year round - I want to avoid places that are purely summer season tourist havens. I large part of the plan is to escape Norfolk in the winter!
Do you have heating in your house? I noticed quite a few I looked at online don't.

Quite a good position for a smaller boat (eg Sealine S23). You will notice the roads, hence bridges, I mentioned earlier. You will be on the sea in 10 mins. Some of the outer areas would take you half an hour.
I didn’t have a house there but stayed on the boat (Sealine S37) in the marina, £6000pa including elec, water, parking so not expensive. You can get bargain deals from apartments owners who don’t use their allocated berths.

 

[westernman]

Funnily enough, the very first house that came up on the link posted by someone else in in Empuriabrava
https://www.idealista.com/en/inmueble/106318197/
I hadn't realised the town was quite so big but good for being active year round - I want to avoid places that are purely summer season tourist havens. I large part of the plan is to escape Norfolk in the winter!
Do you have heating in your house? I noticed quite a few I looked at online don't.

You will need air conditioning in July and August.
Usually this will be reversible and will provide adequate heating for normal winter weather.

 

[DavidJ]

You will need air conditioning in July and August.
Usually this will be reversible and will provide adequate heating for normal winter weather.

Absolutely! and one of the benefits of having elec included in the S37 marina fee.
The larger berths have meters

 

[ingenious]

Also for us in Birmingham there are flights to Gerona and Perpignan which are just over an hour away from Empuriabrava. That said we preferred to fly to BCN (Barcelona Airport) because it was cheaper and a better choice of flight times (I don’t like getting up early)

My nearest airport is Norwich so flights from there are limited. Driving to Stansted opens up Ryanair to Beziers, Perpignan and Girona as well as BCN