Buying from a private seller

[Fenders]

I have found a yacht that ticks all my boxes and am I considering making an offer on her.
The yacht is advertised privately, not through a broker. The vendor has been very informative and helpful and I am sure that all is legitimate.
I have been informed that the yacht is part 3 registered. My understanding is that this doesn't prove ownership. Only part 1 does.
So, how do I establish that the vendor is the owner and not someone that is selling a boat he doesn't own. And how do I find out if there are any charges against the boat, like mortgages, marina fees, etc?

I am sure that everything is in order. I am just being very cautious, having "caught a very expensive cold" many years ago by a scammer. I guess it's a bit like buying a car from someone in a carpark.

Fenders

 

[prv]

So, how do I establish that the vendor is the owner and not someone that is selling a boat he doesn't own. And how do I find out if there are any charges against the boat, like mortgages, marina fees, etc?

There isn't any cast-iron way.

A bill of sale from the last-but-one owner to the current one is usually asked for. Paperwork like old yard bills etc in the owner's name provides further evidence. But ultimately all of this stuff is just paper and could be faked.

Pete

 

[sailorman]

I sold my last yacht privately 17 yrs ago using the RYA contract, value £27k

 

[bitbaltic]

Nothing stops you hiring the services of a broker to check the paperwork for you.

 

[Tranona]

Read the guidance on the RYA site and use the draft contract. There is a list of documents and other evidence you should look for.

 

[duncan99210]

If there were any charges on the boat, most lenders would require Part 1 registration which can be used to record a charge. As Tranona says there are documents to look for that will help establish a audit trail for previous ownership but there is no 'official' system for recording ownership. If the current owner has service receipts, marina bills and the like showing he's been paying the bills on the boat over the past few years, that's probably the best you're going to get. Sometimes you'll strike lucky and there'll be a complete trail back to the original supplier including VAT invoices and the like but that by no means always the case.
If in the other hand there's little or no paperwork, you're being asked to pay cash and have no idea where the seller actually lives, then you may wish to think again......

 

[Capt. Clueless]

RYA have a booklet called "Buying a secondhand yacht- the legal aspects".

 

[doug748]

As well as the paperwork:
Check in the boatyard, marina, yacht club where the boat lies. It is fine to say you are considering the boat and ask if the boat is paid up to date by MrX. They probably should not tell you or even confirm the owners name but many will, particularly if you suggest it is in their best interests eg:

"I just want to get off on the right foot - will I owe you anything - are you able to lift it in for me - what will it cost - Is there a joint owner - have you any space/moorings for next year - can I leave the boat here for three months - how did MrX settle, will a cheque be ok?"

That sort of thing. Hopefully they will know the owner well, so will the guy on the boat next door or on the next pontoon. Try visiting the boat at the weekend without the owner and have a snoot round.

Tracing agencies will give you his address, past addresses and any outstanding CCJs for about forty quid, which is worth it if you have the slightest doubt.

If it looks ok it probably is, fraudulently selling a boat is not that easy but it can happen.

 

[Fenders]

Thanks for the replies.

Some very good suggestions. I will take them all on board(excuse the pun), and tread carefully.

Fenders

I

 

[Alpha22]

A genuine seller would be more than happy to give you their home address, how about you drop round the deposit to his home??

 

[Spyro]

I wouldn't worry about charges against the boat. Any money owed to a marina for fees are owed by the owner not the boat. if he is the genuine owner he will have receipts for fees paid anyway also receipts for all the bits and pieces that he will undoubtedly have had. There is absolutely no need to involve a broker unless he particularly wants to give away a big percentage of any sale so don't worry too much about it being a private sale.

 

[bitbaltic]

There is absolutely no need to involve a broker unless he particularly wants to give away a big percentage of any sale so don't worry too much about it being a private sale.

Agree there is no need to hire a broker in this case- but to be clear, when a buyer engages a broker, he pays the fee, not the seller- the broker in that case acts for the buyer. It's not common but can be done. The OP hasn't put an offer in yet- he could, if he wishes, write his best offer on a bit of paper, get a quote for conveyancing from a broker, subtract the latter from the former and put the result to the vendor. If accepted the OP has the best of both worlds- the boat he wants with the paper trail security he prefers.

 

[superheat6k]

I wouldn't worry about charges against the boat. Any money owed to a marina for fees are owed by the owner not the boat. if he is the genuine owner he will have receipts for fees paid anyway also receipts for all the bits and pieces that he will undoubtedly have had. There is absolutely no need to involve a broker unless he particularly wants to give away a big percentage of any sale so don't worry too much about it being a private sale.

If there are bills owed by an owner then a yard or marina can easily place a lien against the boat, and all the easier if it is ashore - no cash no splash. Yes they are the (prior) owner's debts, but if you have paid out your money, you do not want to then find out the marina are demanding £3,000 in unpaid fees, after all they will argue it was the boat that incurred the bill, and likely have a term in there contract allowing them to exercise such a lien.

However, as said during the purchase process talk to the marina and ask them if there are any debts accrued against the boat. If you own or part own the boat (i.e. deposit paid) they have a defacto contract with you, so would be obliged to tell you.

 

[Tranona]

I wouldn't worry about charges against the boat. Any money owed to a marina for fees are owed by the owner not the boat. if he is the genuine owner he will have receipts for fees paid anyway also receipts for all the bits and pieces that he will undoubtedly have had. There is absolutely no need to involve a broker unless he particularly wants to give away a big percentage of any sale so don't worry too much about it being a private sale.

That is not true. Marina debts are against the boat, not the owner - one of the reasons for using a broker because he will ensure all debts are cleared so the debt do not follow the boat. The Bill of Sale specifically requires the vendor to sign that the boat is free of charges.

Many brokers will handle the actual conveyancing for a fixed fee - drawing up the contract, holding the deposit and doing the searches if required. This can be very useful if the buyer is not confident or the boat has a complex history. So, not giving away a big %age but a fee for professional services. A private seller could also engage a broker for this part of the transaction.

 

[superheat6k]

Why Boats at Bursledon offer a process only service. When I was selling last year they offered this for £995 if I found the buyer.

 

[Ceirwan]

I'm not sure how you'd go about checking finance on the vessel, but the Marina fees might be as simple as ringing the Marina and asking.

They're aren't supposed to inform you, but I'd imagine asked politely and in the right way they'd let you know if you'd owe them money or not.

 

[Tranona]

I'm not sure how you'd go about checking finance on the vessel, but the Marina fees might be as simple as ringing the Marina and asking.

They're aren't supposed to inform you, but I'd imagine asked politely and in the right way they'd let you know if you'd owe them money or not.

Just to be clear, it is not the buyer's responsibility to pay the marina any outstanding bills, but the seller, otherwise the vessel is not free of charges. A broker would do this from the proceeds of the sale so that the buyer gets clear title.

As to finance, this is not usually a big issue with the sort of boat most people buy here, mainly because there is very little lending these days secured on a boat.Typically minimum lends are £50k+ and for maybe only 50% purchase price. Lenders of this type will either require a registered charge, so the boat will be on Part 1 or will hold the original documents as security.

The unknowns might be an unregistered charge, but that is difficult to search - and just as difficult for the lender to enforce if a boat changes hands, or a third party has an interest in the title to the boat. That is where a trail of Bills of Sale are important as this is the primary evidence of title.

Hundreds, if not thousands of boats change hands each year, many of them privately, and provided the guidance on documents and contracts is followed the risk of problems is very small.

 

[Spyro]

Agree there is no need to hire a broker in this case- but to be clear, when a buyer engages a broker, he pays the fee, not the seller- the broker in that case acts for the buyer. It's not common but can be done. The OP hasn't put an offer in yet- he could, if he wishes, write his best offer on a bit of paper, get a quote for conveyancing from a broker, subtract the latter from the former and put the result to the vendor. If accepted the OP has the best of both worlds- the boat he wants with the paper trail security he prefers.

When I said "he" I did mean the seller. I've bought and sold a few boats. Just pointing out it's perfectly normal not to use a broker and although the buyer is right to be cautious it's not something to get too suspicious about.