Buying advice for novice with aspirations

[SailAway1]

I am a novice currently doing RYA dinghy sailing 1 to 3. I am going to also get some experience in bigger boats by getting to Day Skipper theory and practical level by the end of the year. I will be doing this in the North Wales area and will be hoping to experience some more demanding weather conditions.

My plan is to get a boat circa £3k by the end of the year hopefully after summer when I hear prices reduce a bit? I will be looking to moor this in the Merseyside area or somewhere near like Deeside or even N. Wales. I am thinking the cheapest option would therefore be a bilge keel boat? Hopefully I will get sailing a couple of times per week to get some experience. I will be doing most of my sailing alone friends and family don't seem that interested apart from the occasional joy ride. LOL

I have an open job offer starting next year in Dublin for a year or two. Instead of paying extortionate rent in Dublin I was thinking of sailing the boat to a Marina and living aboard. In fact it will only really be sleeping aboard as I will do little cooking and use marina facilities for shower etc. I will be flying back to the UK every Fri until Monday as well. I would be hoping to get plenty of sailing done whilst living aboard.

I know very little about boats akin to viewing a second hand car and making a decision after kicking a few tyres. Therefore I am thinking of getting a survey and buying a boat that is in good mechanical order e.g. hull, sails and rigging. But I am more than happy to buy a boat in need of cosmetic restoration. I would have plenty of free time and like the idea of redesigning and restoring the inside completely and if need be move out for a couple of weeks. I am very handy at DIY and would enjoy trying to do most things myself. I trained as a painter and decorator and have worked as a coach painter, wood restorer and metal restorer also done a bit of fibre glassing. Cosmetically I will be able to restorate to a very high standard and really enjoy doing it. I am good with electrics including renewables and now work in IT. My best friend is also a furniture repairer and upholsterer and I have done bits of work with him.

I am thinking what better way to get to know your boat than doing as much work as possible on it yourself. I would also be willing to upgrade and spend money on it as I proceed. I have little mechanical experience apart from basic knowledge of how an engine works ad how to service it, but I am keen to learn. Therefore I was thinking an outboard would be the better option. I have read the cost of repairs or replacing an inboard can be more than the boat itself is worth. Also I feel it would be more difficult to repair and service an inboard myself.

So I Am thinking I should be looking at coastal boats around 23'. As for the boat interior I was looking at Achilles 24 but I really don't like the toilet arrangement under the V birth. I would prefer a separate toilet. Also the head room looks very restricted even though I am 5'10".

After a couple of years I would be looking to sell the boat on. In a much better state than when I bought it. I would use the sale money to get something bit bigger and doing some longer distance sailing maybe even blue water. Which is my real goal however I doubt any friends or family would want to join me. So maybe I wouldn't need to sell the boat if I bought the right one in the first place?

In summary I would like to know:

1 Is this feasible or pie in the sky?

If the answer to the above is YES its feasible then:

2 Would a bilge keel boat be the best option?

3 What is a good type of boat to look at and if so is my budget of £3k enough considering I am looking to do the majority of the work myself?

4 Is it true prices of boats start to come down after the summer?

5 Would 22-24' boats fit my requirements?

6 Is an outboard motor the better option for me?

7 Would it be simpler for me to buy a boat in Ireland are there problems with mooring UK boats long term?

8 Marina fees of 3k per annum is that to be paid in full up front?

Thanks for reading my post if you made it this far without getting bored or laughing too much :encouragement:

 

[Tranona]

Little wrong with your aspirations, but way out on boat size and budget unless you are prepared to live a very spartan life.

Deal with size first. Few 23' have enough space to do much more than sit and sleep inside. 26' and it start to become feasible with a boat like a bilge keel Westerly Centaur. This size also makes crossing to Dublin more feasible.

Prices. Old boats are very cheap at the moment because firstly most are worn out and you will find refurbishing or replacing worn out bits quickly exceeds the purchase price. As a consequence few people are interested in taking them on. Prices vary little according to the time of year. Asking prices bear little connection with selling price as sellers either just want rid so are open to any offer, or still think their boat is valuable so won't accept any offer.

The key things to look for are sound major components such as engine, rig, electrics. Sounds simple but in reality many boats are for sale lack this, as if they were usable the owner would probably not be selling. That does not mean that there are not bargains, but you really have to look for them, and you are not in the best location to find such boats for sale. So expect to do a lot of looking at rubbish boats before you find one that suits. As the saying goes, you will kiss a lot of frogs before you find a prince.

Have a look on this forum at threads by steve yates who is in the process of doing just what you are planning. He had a bigger budget then you and bought a boat that had all the desirable things, but unused for some time - quite a common situation. Even with a lot of help he has had to do a lot of work to get the boat ready for use.

So, be realistic. A boat for a few thousand £s has WORK (and money) written all over it and there is a danger you end up spending all your spare time fixing it rather than sailing, no money for beer and a boat that will likely never be worth more than you paid.

 

[SailAway1]

Thanks Tranona for your advice

I will certainly check out Steve Yates posts and consider larger 26' boats. I have just looked at Westerly Centaur and I do like the look of them. They seem to start at about £4k on appollo. As you say though at that sort of price they will require a lot of work. I must admit though I was a bit unsure about larger boats for an inexperienced sailor especially sailing single handed. Also I do like the idea of an outboard for simplicity sake.

I agree with you that the majority of boats for sale do seem to be in the South of the country. So I would have to include the cost of getting it to the Northwest. This is why I was also considering just buying one in Ireland.

Maybe the answer then is to save more for my boat buying budget. Rather than my initial idea of buying a project boat which only needs cosmetic restoration and spend as I go along. I do like the idea of getting my hands dirty though and ending up with something to be proud of. Plus getting to know the boat inside out.

PS I dont mind kissing a few frogs as long as I end up with a princess LOL

 

[steve yates]

Actually my budget was the same as yours, for my second boat, I went over for a much bigger and different type of boat than I was after, solely because the price I might get it at was much less than they usually go for. Having said that, boats are for using, and are worthless sitting in a marina doing **** all. Although I got a very good buy, I often wonder if I shouldn't have just bought a smaller one ready to go. Having said that, I have had to sort stuff, but the cost hasn't been much, £500 or so? I could spend more on headlining, new fuel tank and new steering cables, but I don't need to in order to sail her. I will do that this winter, probably, as I intend to keep it for a long time. Also, forget about real value, a boat is a cost, period, not an investment. Get the use out of it, and give it away if you have to when it's time is done. You'll only bleed marina fees etc trying to recoup any money you have spent, that is a mugs game.
At your budget, I would buy something like little sisters samphire 23, in a heartbeat. Great boat, sorted ready to go. It's in the south, but the sail north will teach you everything you need to know to be reasonably safe.

Centaurs are funny things, often overpriced for the state they are in. I wouldn't pay more than 5k for one and would expect it to be ready to sail away for that.

Tranonal and I are at different ends of the scale when it comes to boat buying and ownership, but he talks a lot of sense and is very helpful. I often don't necessarily agree, but I suspect that comes down to circumstance, and we don't know yours. Between his posts and mine you will probably find a happy middle
Good luck.

 

[Tranona]

You will find a bigger boat much easier to handle and an inboard engine far superior to an outboard. However old inboards are to be avoided and best to get a boat that has a properly installed newer inboard. You should be able to find a reasonable Centaur with a newish engine for around £4-6k.

Moving boats is expensive and could easily cost £1k to move from south or east coast. You will find choice even more limited in Ireland and prices higher.

 

[steve yates]

I would definitely echo tranona's advice there, an old boat must be either reengineed, or be outboard powered, otherwise forget it.

 

[steve yates]

Forgot to say, marina fees can be paid monthly, though there is a slight discount if paid annually in advance.
22-24 ft is doable, 26ft plus is better for living aboard. In a marina you use their facilities, so the heads is not much of an issue, until you are sailing. Then it's down to you. Personally I prefer either a separate heads or just a bucket and chuck it, anything in between just doesn't appeal. Go proper, or go basic
Do a boat up by all means, it makes it saleable, but never expect to recoup your expenditure, it's very unlikely.

 

[SailAway1]

Thanks for some great advice Steve. Just reading through your posts. Lots of them LOL

 

[Iliade]

I lived on a Listing T24 for ten years as a youngster. For me, the lack of standing headroom was no real issue, but the large and comfortable lounging area of the dinette was! It was far more comfortable to be on than many of my friends' larger boats. However... I now sail with a family aboard and the steadier nature and full standing headroom of the Centaur outstrip the value of the Listang's more generous dinette.
I think it is really important to be able to set at least one lounging seat up with an inclined back and feet supported at squab level. This can often be achieved with dinettes with throw cushions stuffed behind the seat back foam.

A proper sea toilet is important. One that works properly even more so.

All boats leak somewhere and you will get damp. Captain Tolley is your friend.

My first live aboard was fin keeled. It is perfectly possible to dry out upright in very soft harbour mud, tied to harbour walls and, if you have beaching legs, on hard beaches. However, the iron bilge keels of the Centaur are far better for cruising the South Coast and islands. Likewise I suspect the West Coast and Ireland.

Centaurs
There are three Centaur layouts. I would suggest that the original 'A' layout is actually the best for both full-time live aboard and cruising as it allows you to sit at the table and see out of the windows. Other layouts are no doubt better for day sailing or single handed atlantic crossings, but they don't suit me. You should be able to find an unloved Centaur within your budget. Also, most owners have inflated views of the value of their boats. Try offers as many want to move on.

The original MD2B engines are fairly well past their sell-by date and major spares are astronomically expensive, so treat one with great caution. Internal waterway corrosion is the big issue, with poor cooling under load the first symptom. While flow still exists, brick acid can resolve the problem, but eventually the block will corrode away. You may get another 20 years out of a well-loved example. There may be indirect cooled ones out there and they should last until the end of days.

Nanni and Beta replacement engines start at about £3k for the 10hp, but you can often find boats that have been re-engined on sale for less than the price of the new engine. Owners tend to think of an engine fitted ten years ago as new, but don't expect a Beta or Nanni to last the 40 plus years that the original Volvo can achieve.

The issue with boats the size of the Centaur is that you cannot tow them behind a car. That means sailing them to wherever you are going. However, they are very capable little Tonka Toys and the boat would not struggle with that concept, though left too late in the year, the crew might.

The issue with boats light enough to tow behind a car is that they are likely to be very tender for living aboard.

Don't wait to purchase. Prices are pretty depressed at present anyway and you will thereby get the chance to move her and get used to sailing and living aboard in the less unpleasant weather of the summer. Don't be surprised if August is very windy, but of late it usually settles down again for September.

 

[Thresher]

Dear Sailaway
Your post reminds me of the excitement I felt when I was in your position of buying a first boat and doing all of the research, it is a great place to be.
Here's my tuppence worth. I sail on on East Coast so bought a twin keeler. I have only beached it and dried out a handful of times in 15 years and then probably only because I could. I would not let it be a factor in buying a boat.
I had a small problem with the sea toilet and started using a bucket, I got used to it and never got around to fixing the toilet. I suppose It was nice for guests though. I would prefer to have the space.
Good luck with your choices!

 

[[70521]]

I am about to put my Mirage 28 on the market as a partially finished project boat, pity I am in Devon.

 

[Focused1]

Take a look at the sadler 25, should be able to get one in your price range. Will need work but i lived on my 26 for 2 years, and it was entirely doable. Done all the work myself and got almost all my money back for boat and work when i sold it. Serious little boats with good looks.

 

[lpdsn]

I have an open job offer starting next year in Dublin for a year or two. Instead of paying extortionate rent in Dublin I was thinking of sailing the boat to a Marina and living aboard. In fact it will only really be sleeping aboard as I will do little cooking and use marina facilities for shower etc. I will be flying back to the UK every Fri until Monday as well. I would be hoping to get plenty of sailing done whilst living aboard.

First of all check out the marina prices in Dublin. Although they're not Solent prices, they have aspirations. All four big marinas have DART stations nearby (Malahide, Howth, Dun Laoghaire & Greystones). Howth is a club, the rest are commercial. I don't think any overtly allow liveaboards but I've certainly seen those about who are probably living aboard at Malahide & DL.

There's also a marina at Poolbeg. It's cheaper and always seems to be nearly full. A little bleaker as you have to cross the road near the East Link toll bridge to get to cvilisation (well Ringsend anyway). There is a Luas (tram line) terminus the other side of the bridge, but don't underestimate how wet you can get walking across that bridge in wet weather.

It can be very wet and damp in the winter. I've registered over 90% humidity on board with natural ventilation (not surprising in retrospect as it turned out as the GFS model predicted 92% when I checked). None of the marinas have what you'd call a fair system for shorepower - Malahide, for example, has a flat rate €60 per month winter rate for plugging in during the winter regardless of how much you use. Or €470 annual.

You'd also have to look carefully at where your work would be located. They overlooked public transport when Dublin expanded during the Celtic Tiger and are only slowly catching up. In an amazing new development the two tram lines are expected to meet in the middle later this year.

As plan B, given you'll be flying home each weekend, I would recommend just staying in B&B during the week. It's cheaper usually than renting. Air b'n'b is pretty popular and widely available. Get your sailing in by visiting the clubs (Howth YC, DMYC, Irish, George & National - last four at DL) and volunteering to crew in evening races.

 

[Rafiki]

You should be able to get a perfectly useable Westerly Centuar which has had the original engine replaced ( the largest single piece of expenditure on a sailing boat!) for £5-6k, but other things like instruments and upholstery may require updating. Look on Westerly Owners website

 

[SailAway1]

thanks for some great advice I really appreciate you taking the time to reply. As you know it's extremely difficult for a newbie and advice from more knowledgeable people is essential. Without that we would just end up making an expensive mistake and buying something totally inappropriate. It is very difficult to actually get to see boats never mind get out and do some sailing on them. Apart from the dinghy sailing and some power boat I only have experience on a friends 18' and that was a while back.

Take a look at the sadler 25, should be able to get one in your price range. Will need work but i lived on my 26 for 2 years, and it was entirely doable. Done all the work myself and got almost all my money back for boat and work when i sold it. Serious little boats with good looks.

They certainly look a contender and will be investigating them further. The Centaur is also a contender as it ticks many of the boxes for living aboard. However, I am really looking to do a lot of sailing as I will have plenty of free time while living aboard, so I am wandering just how good they are to sail. Reading reviews I noticed this in the yachtingmonthly.com review

"Coastal daysailing is her forte, with the odd jaunt across open water in fair or moderate weather to, say, France, Holland or Ireland."

which got me thinking. I am very impulsive and probably will go into work have a bad day and tell my boss where to put his job. I have few commitments now and aspirations of sailing further afield. I really like the idea of sailing around the UK and Ireland but my ultimate goal would be to sail off and spend months around Norway and Sweden. I am guessing that a Centaur is not the boat for that. That's why I am thinking of getting a boat to live on, enjoy improving it and getting plenty of sailing experience. I understand that I probably wont make much more money than the original purchase price when I come to sell it. However, it will certainly be a much better boat and I expect it to be much more desirable to buyers. So the sale of that would go towards a more suitable boat for venturing further afield because I am sure anything of that ilk is out of my budget and experience right now.

Thanks SAPurdie, I agree the Centaur 'A' layout is the best and also that a proper sea toilet. A porta potty or bucket is not for me. So you rule out a trailer sailer as too light for what I require. That's good advice I would have trouble putting an empty trailer somewhere anyway.

First of all check out the marina prices in Dublin...

Thanks I am going to get the ferry from Liverpool to Dublin over the summer, it should be fun its a while since I did that. In fact its twenty years since I have been to Dublin though I did live in Cork for 6 month in 1999 and loved it. I will be checking out marinas when I am there and thanks to you transport links too.

Your plan B is the sensible option but I am not just looking to save money by living aboard. I really want to take this opportunity to get a boat learn how to sail and repair/renovate it myself. I see it as a kick start to future adventures.

 

[[3889]]

+1 for a b&b in preference to a small boat in a Dublin marina, over winter at least, in terms of both cost and comfort.
I've kept boats in numerous locations in your area of the UK, Liverpool, Preston, Menai Strait, Holyhead, Fiddlers Ferry and the Dee estuary. From what you say, a mooring at Thurstaston (Dee Sailing Club though no need for membership) would be your best option. There are always suitable boats for sale at DSC, though even their owners may not be aware of this on first approach�� The yard is in far more demand than mooring space.

 

[SailAway1]

+1 for a b&b in preference to a small boat in a Dublin marina, over winter at least, in terms of both cost and comfort.
I've kept boats in numerous locations in your area of the UK, Liverpool, Preston, Menai Strait, Holyhead, Fiddlers Ferry and the Dee estuary. From what you say, a mooring at Thurstaston (Dee Sailing Club though no need for membership) would be your best option. There are always suitable boats for sale at DSC, though even their owners may not be aware of this on first approach�� The yard is in far more demand than mooring space.

Thanks but I have done the BnB thing when living in Cork and hated it. Other guests were a nuisance. Also because I would only be staying 4 nights it means not having a base and having to take everything away and bring it back again. I am very robust I love to wild camp and often do that in the Lake District and N. Wales. Though pushing 50 now and getting a bit too old for that another reason why I am looking to get into sailing.

Thurstaston sounds great I will try and get down ASAP and have a look around.

 

[Tranona]

The Centaur (and many other similar size boats) are quite capable of doing what you propose. Remember when they were new the were considered quite big boats and people cruised all over the place in them. Google Keep Turning Left and you will find a huge amount of material on going round Britain the hard way in small boats, including 2 Centaurs.

However going up a size to the Longbow such as Steve has opens up far more possibilities and a lot more space, but as ever costs potentially rise as well. On the other hand these boats are cheap and provided you buy a working example you can take a couple of years learning the ropes and deciding what you like before changing. Very rarely is the first boat the last!

 

[Kurrawong_Kid]

I agree with much of the advice on this post, but would add that my son, who bought my previous boat, lived on her twice when doing contracts, once in Amsterdam and once in South Dock, London and saved a fortune!
Also consider other boats as well as Centaurs. In particular Albin Vegas go for the same as Centaurs and sail really well although they are long fin. Another possible contender is the Pegasus. Not all boats at c £5k are wrecks. Saw a well found Canadian boat at Tollesbury for that sort of figure, but engine spares only available from US at the moment.
Keep looking, listening, learning and carefully weigh up the advice.

 

[SailAway1]

So far I have learnt to forget about trailer sailers they're too light for sea, therefore ignore anything less than 26', dont get a long term project, best to get a boat with a new or recently engineered inboard, bilge keel, proper sea toilet.

May be then a Cent26 with "A layout "could be the answer even long term. Especially if its feasible for longer journeys, not necessarily ocean sailing but able to hop across a sea in good weather. In which case I would be willing to spend more initially and invest more time and money once I owned it. I would rather plough the money I saved from filling a landlords coffers into improving my own boat. That would feel like justice and getting something for nothing. Especially if I get the benefits of keeping the boat for a long time. May be the Cent26 isnt the best boat to sail but I wouldn't know much difference having not sailed many other boats.

My next step then is to go and view a couple and if I like them save another 1 or 2k to buy a decent example. Then get it to a local mooring like Thurstaston and do some sailing on it. When the time is right after a completing the day skipper course and once I feel confident enough I would take it to Ireland maybe even finding someone experienced to accompany me. They could use the tender to get back to blighty.

I did read that Cent26s have some inherent problems, so what about a survey or would a boat with a recent survey suffice?