Buying a secondhand Torqueedo

[Fergal]

Our Torqueedo is c14 years old, purchased shortly after they were introduced to the UK. It was used every week during the sailing season until 4 years ago when changing boats it was in store. During the time stored I occasionally checked the battery level and was pleased to see very little decline in charge. Before being brought back into use this year we had it serviced by Golden Arrow Marine in Southampton which included a health check on the battery. The service from Golden Arrow was excellent and reason and they advised that all battery cells were good and were given a copy of the bench test. There was slight corrosion at the motor seal due to water ingress which would have destroyed the internal electronics if we left it much longer.

We have been disappointed with the corrosion to the painted area but will try to abrade and repaint this winter.

Although not as quiet nor has the battery capacity as the latest model I would still recommend it.

 

[reallycoliholic]

Google shows some "bargains" from China. Is this relevant for under £300. Delivery next week?
(Neuer Rabatt) Torqeedo Travel 1103 c elektrischer Außenbordmotor - AliExpress

 

[noelex]

According to Off Grid Garage the not 100% storage is a hangover from Lithium Ion batteries where something gets expanded at full charge. LiFePO4, apparently, don't do that so it's not a problem for them. Ours is several years old with no apparent issues

Are they LiFePO4 batteries? Torqeedo make both LFP and LiNMC batteries and I thought (perhaps incorrectly) that the portable outboards were using LiNMC technology.

 

[fredrussell]

Google shows some "bargains" from China. Is this relevant for under £300. Delivery next week?
(Neuer Rabatt) Torqeedo Travel 1103 c elektrischer Außenbordmotor - AliExpress

Everything I’ve ordered from AliExpress has turned up exactly as described, but that is surely some sort of scam.

 

[wonkywinch]

Cadoha did a review on the Torqueedo and I remember them comparing the gen 1 vs gen 2 models that were much quieter.

The first generation still much quieter than an ICE but definitely more whirry sounding than the 2nd gen and ePropulsion.

 

[mattonthesea]

Are they LiFePO4 batteries? Torqeedo make both LFP and LiNMC batteries and I thought (perhaps incorrectly) that the portable outboards were using LiNMC technology.

Ah, didn't know that

 

[Sea Change]

According to Off Grid Garage the not 100% storage is a hangover from Lithium Ion batteries where something gets expanded at full charge. LiFePO4, apparently, don't do that so it's not a problem for them. Ours is several years old with no apparent issues

LiFePO4 don't like to stay at 100% for long periods. Chemically speaking, dendrites form and the cells start to bulge. This is irreversible damage. Many of us will have experienced this with small batteries in phones etc.
LiFePO4 is generally much more robust than other forms of lithium ion, but AFAIK they all have the same dislike of sitting at full charge continuously.

 

[harvey38]

Google shows some "bargains" from China. Is this relevant for under £300. Delivery next week?
(Neuer Rabatt) Torqeedo Travel 1103 c elektrischer Außenbordmotor - AliExpress

But if you read the single review, the buyer received an empty box and they state it was a fraud.......well done to them for sharing.

 

[nestawayboats]

STATE OF CHARGE IN STORAGE

To the best of our knowledge all "Lithium chemistry" batteries, including all Torqeedo and ePropulsion batteries, prefer to be stored neither full nor empty. Whether that's 80%, 70% or 50% matters less than "not full" (and definitely not left on a float charge), and "not empty". If left at more than 60% the ePropulsion Spirit batteries actually discharge themselves down to 60% or so after a month of not being used, then go into a very safe (extremely low discharge), deep sleep mode.

This is in contrast to many yachtsmen's lifetime experience of being told to keep their (lead acid) batteries as full as possible in storage.

How you store lithium-based batteries for the first couple of years probably doesn't make a lot of difference, but over the years the difference accumulates and may have quite a significant effect by the time they reach the secondhand market... quite likely more difference than how many times it's been used ie charged/discharged (as in the leisure market that number tends to be quite low, compared to the number of charge cycles that actually make a difference).

which brings us to...

BUYING A SECOND HAND ELECTRIC OUTBOARD

We are frequently astonished by the prices fetched on ebay etc for 2nd hand electric outboards. But that's because we can usually identify which model they are and roughly how old they are. The biggest problem from a casual observer's point of view is that pretty much all Torqeedos since about 2011, until the launch this year (2024) of the new Travel and Travel XP series, look the same. But amongst those Torqeedos that look the same there are, as memory serves me:
- the 503 which has a 500W motor, the infamous whiney gearbox, and (oldest to newest) either a 320Wh or a 400Wh or a 500Wh battery
- the 1003 which has a 1000W motor, a whiney gearbox, and a 400, 500, or 915Wh battery (designated 1003C with 915Wh, but looks identical)
- the 1103 which has 1100W motor, no gearbox (direct drive), and a 915Wh battery. Easiest visual differentiator is the quite large motor bulb compared with 503 and 1003.
- the relatively rare 603 which was a de-tuned 1103 (same weight/size leg, 600W output), with a 500Wh battery

All the above models are now discontinued but there is the still-current 903 which is a slightly less de-tuned 1103 (rated 900W), again with a 915Wh battery and some black paint to make it look (slightly) different!

A 2011 503 with its original (ie now 13 year old) 320Wh battery does still look quite similar to a 903. But even if the 13 year old battery retained 100% of its capacity it would only be one third of that supplied with 903. It won't have retained all its original capacity, all batteries lose 2-4% per year just by existing (whether it's 2 or 4% depends largely on how it's stored). The 503 would also only have just over half the power of the 903, and make quite a loud whining noise from its reduction gearbox (the 903 is all-but silent).

But if you don't know what you're looking at they look the same, and we often see 10 year old 1003 models get to over £1000 in online auctions, compared to current RRP of £1739 for a brand new 903 with a bag set.

Whether all that's good or bad depends on if you're buying or selling I guess!

At risk of further confusion, before the 503/1003 Torqeedos they had the 401/801 but most of them were traded-in on a fairly-irresistible deal with Torqeedo, and any that are left are at least 14 years old, so rare indeed. They do also look quite different, and if you are looking at one beware the connectors which appear to be the same as those fitted to computer networks before everyone had WiFi... and didn't appear to have much resistance to salt.

ePropulsion Spirits also look quite similar to each other but the oldest one in UK is only about 10 years old. The Spirit 1.0 with a 1000W motor and 1018Wh battery was updated to the Spirit PLUS in about 2020, with 1276Wh battery and a better connector (and some other internal upgrades). The only way to tell those apart is whether it says Spirit 1.0 or Spirit PLUS on the tiller. Much like the numbers on the Torqeedo tillers, except the Torqeedo tillers are interchangeable so you can't even totally rely on that!

It's an interesting to see, having quoted back some of those old specs, that the ~15kg Torqeedo 503 of 2011 had similar power and battery capacity to the ~6.5kg ePropulsion eLite of 2024. I can't for the life of me think what a 503 cost back then but it was definitely more (and unquestionably more in inflation-adjusted terms) than the eLite at £995. We are often asked "why haven't electric outboard prices come down?"... but they have, if you compare eggs with eggs.

Ian, Nestaway Boats (selling Torqeedo and ePropulsion for as long as they've been in the UK)

 

[Fimacca]

Surely folk don't believe these Alibaba prices? The too good to be true adage must kick in ? !

￡275.39
￡323.9915% off
Price shown before tax

6 x ￡45.89 with no interest

(NEW DISCOUNT) Torqeedo TRAVEL 1103 C Electric Outboard Motor​

 

[greeny]

Surely folk don't believe these Alibaba prices? The too good to be true adage must kick in ? !

￡275.39
￡323.9915% off
Price shown before tax

6 x ￡45.89 with no interest

(NEW DISCOUNT) Torqeedo TRAVEL 1103 C Electric Outboard Motor​

Surely no one would be stupid enough to be caught by a scam like that. And then admit to it on the forum

 

[AngusMcDoon]

Surely folk don't believe these Alibaba prices? The too good to be true adage must kick in ? !

￡275.39
￡323.9915% off
Price shown before tax

6 x ￡45.89 with no interest

(NEW DISCOUNT) Torqeedo TRAVEL 1103 C Electric Outboard Motor​

If one wanted a genuine Travel 1103 with all the trimmings, but one didn't want to stump up for a new one, one wouldn't want to risk one's money on a dodgy Chinese site scam, would one? One would be better buying a lightly used one, wouldn't one? You never know who might have one.