Bought a Chinese diesel heater, now tested...

[moomba]

interesting site for those that need to replace their or add ducting
https://www.i-sells.co.uk/insulated-aluminium-hose-102mm-10-metres?ref=ViewTitle

 

[stevd]

They seem pretty good. Not much to them really.

Are the gaskets the same as Eberspacher or Webasto? or are the parts readily available for them? They seem incredibly good value. Wish I had of known about them two years ago when I had to replace the Eberspacher ecu!

 

[Steve_N]

Are the gaskets the same as Eberspacher or Webasto? or are the parts readily available for them? They seem incredibly good value. Wish I had of known about them two years ago when I had to replace the Eberspacher ecu!

Yes most parts are interchangeable with the Airtronics, of which they are a direct copy, but sadly not the ECU.
Fan motor £12
Complete fan assembly £25
Glowplug £12
Dosing pump £10
etc.

 

[superheat6k]

My ducting (installed by/for previous owner) has no insulation whatsoever. It makes for very toasty lockers! (Including the one with the fridge in! ) Hence I'm looking to install some, and interested to identify the options.

I used this stuff.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Aluminiu...var=423538194894&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

The insulation layer is split under the outer aluminium layer, so simply cut along the split the required length and lay it over and around your existing duct, then join with loops of heavy duty duct tape. OK it looks a bit messy, but as it is out of sight, function is more important. Or simply replace the ducting with this stuff.

During bench testing I measured the end of the heat exchanger just inside the outlet at 115oC.

With the ducts insulated the air from all the vents is hot, not just warm.

 

[MarcJ]

I did find a reference to the max temperature at the output which was at or around 110" can't find it now, but I take your point about overheating, that could be a problem...we'll see. Maybe put some rock wool for the first foot or so.

Yes, the high temperature version of the armaflex insulation is good up to 150 degrees and mine has lasted 4 years so far on an Ebespacher. If you have already fitted the standard version then hopefully you will not get to the extreme conditions that generate 150 degrees.

Www.solocoastalsailing.co.uk

 

[Plum]

I did find a reference to the max temperature at the output which was at or around 110" can't find it now, but I take your point about overheating, that could be a problem...we'll see. Maybe put some rock wool for the first foot or so.

The Eberspacher instructions I looked at say
"In the event of possible overheating, it is possible for
local lot air temperatures of up to max. 150 °C or
surface temperatures of up to max. 90 °C to occur
immediately before the defect shutdown. Therefore
only temperature-resistant hot air hoses approved by
us must be used for the heater air system!
• When checking the functions, the mean outflow tem-
perature measured after the heater has been running
about 10 minutes at approx. 30 cm from the outlet
should not exceed 110 °C (at an intake temperature of
approx. 20 °C)."

I don't see why a Chinese version would be different so you can decide what duct/insulation temperature resistance you plan for. The more insulation you put on the ducting the less that lemperature will reduce as you move along the duct. I went for 150 degrees.

Www.solocoastalsailing.co.uk

 

[superheat6k]

The Eberspacher instructions I looked at say
"In the event of possible overheating, it is possible for
local lot air temperatures of up to max. 150 °C or
surface temperatures of up to max. 90 °C to occur
immediately before the defect shutdown. Therefore
only temperature-resistant hot air hoses approved by
us must be used for the heater air system!
• When checking the functions, the mean outflow tem-
perature measured after the heater has been running
about 10 minutes at approx. 30 cm from the outlet
should not exceed 110 °C (at an intake temperature of
approx. 20 °C)."

I don't see why a Chinese version would be different so you can decide what duct/insulation temperature resistance you plan for. The more insulation you put on the ducting the less that lemperature will reduce as you move along the duct. I went for 150 degrees.

Www.solocoastalsailing.co.uk

I think you might find 150oC refers to the safe working maximum temperature of the insulation product, rather than its ability to insulate. For Armaflex I would make sure it is class O non flammable.

I ran my heater today and at full chat it was showing an internal temperature after 10 minutes of 188oC with the cabin at 16oC from an 11oC start. After I turned it off it took it about 3 minutes in fan purge only mode to reach its safe internal shut down temperature of ~ 65oC, when the whole thing powered itself off.

I can see why the casing would easily become so hot if there was a power cut at full power.

 

[Yngmar]

Had a look at what's available recently, as our ancient Eberspächer was acting up a bit, and any spare parts for it cost more than a new Chinese heater, so that's what it'll get replaced with when the time comes. Turned out to be just the usual rubbish wiring fault though, so fixed for now.

The ones available in the 5kW range are all copies of the Airtronic D4, which is a 4kW heater. The same exact heater is mis-sold with any rating from 5-12kW (with increasing prices too). Only the accessories, control pad and colour of the housing seem to vary. The fuel consumption and size reveals what it really is though.

You can simply refer to the Airtronic D4 manual and parts should be interchangeable, although many of the common parts are available on Aliexpress for a lot less too. They also universally all came with the smaller 70mm outlet hood, so if you have bigger ducting on an existing installation, you need to buy the 90mm hood to fit the heater instead.

Other than that they all have good reviews, and an acquaintance who fitted one reports that it works well.

 

[LittleSister]

I used this stuff.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Aluminium...72.m2749.l2649

Thanks for the tip. I think that'll be a bit too bulky for my installation.

I checked out the Armaflex High Temp, but the tubular stuff doesn't seem to come in sizes to suit my 90mm ducts. I think there's also a sheet material but I haven't explored that yet.

With the ducts insulated the air from all the vents is hot, not just warm.

Without any insulation the air from my vents is too hot to have your leg in front of! (And that's after a fairly long run from the transom, though the cockpit lockers (some open fronted) and wheelhouse to get to the saloon and fore cabin!) Maybe I don't need insulation after all.

Actually, one of the reasons for wanting insulation is to ensure the ducting doesn't damage or ignite any of the things it might come into contact with in the lockers. Another is where the ducting passes through an enclosed space baking the back of the fridge! A distant third is to avoid wasting fuel.

 

[superheat6k]

... one of the reasons for wanting insulation is to ensure the ducting doesn't damage or ignite any of the things it might come into contact with ...

I would not worry about ignition. This would require > 250oC. The heater itself would have melted long before the outlet air got that hot. And so far NIL reports of fires on any of these China-Spachers.

 

[LittleSister]

I would not worry about ignition. This would require > 250oC.

I'm not so sure some of my clothes, plastic bags/containers, and in particular the white spirit, paint, etc. in the cockpit locker are all good up to 250 degrees C.

 

[Lon nan Gruagach]

Or I might install the supplied 10l plastic tank, but that means decanting fuel into it with the risk of spillage into the locker.

Hows about using a fuel lift pump to fill the tank? can be plumbed into the main tank if you like. The dont mind running into a closed pipe so you can stop the fill with a valve at the small tank.
something like :[URL="https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12V-Low-Pressure-Universal-Electric-Fuel-Pump-HEP-02A-Petrol-Gas-Diesel-car-H01/323441907078]https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12V-Low-Pressure-Universal-Electric-Fuel-Pump-HEP-02A-Petrol-Gas-Diesel-car-H01/323441907078[/URL]

 

[PaulRainbow]

Hows about using a fuel lift pump to fill the tank? can be plumbed into the main tank if you like. The dont mind running into a closed pipe so you can stop the fill with a valve at the small tank.
something like :https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12V-Low-Pressure-Universal-Electric-Fuel-Pump-HEP-02A-Petrol-Gas-Diesel-car-H01/323441907078

I have to plan an awkward heating system for a customer, i'm more then reluctant to install something that automatically pumps fuel between tanks. Having a transfer pump that is manually operated is an acceptable option though.

 

[Lon nan Gruagach]

I have to plan an awkward heating system for a customer, i'm more then reluctant to install something that automatically pumps fuel between tanks. Having a transfer pump that is manually operated is an acceptable option though.

Absolutely. To clarify, I wasnt suggesting that the pump be energised all the time, just that to stop the transfer, instead of putting a switch in the locker, or running to the switch, the pump would naturally stop if its outflow was stopped. Then the circuit can be switched off at leisure.
A full description might be along the lines of:
Main tank -> valve -> pump -> trailing hose ->valve -> short hose into small tank.
Operation:
close valve at small tank
open valve at main tank
energise pump
open valve at small tank
wait at small tank
close valve at small tank
turn off pump
close valve at main tank

At "up to 115 L/h" it shouldn’t take too long.

 

[superheat6k]

I'm not so sure some of my clothes, plastic bags/containers, and in particular the white spirit, paint, etc. in the cockpit locker are all good up to 250 degrees C.

All of these things will burn at far lower temperatures, but that is not the same as self ignition. White spirit self ignition is 230oC however I was not expecting someone to have highly inflammables next to there heating ducts, fed directly from a flame device. Not something I would consider prudent.

 

[LittleSister]

I was not expecting someone to have highly inflammables next to there heating ducts, fed directly from a flame device. Not something I would consider prudent.

I agree it isn't prudent, but it's what I 'inherited'. That's why I'm adding insulation (among other measures).

 

[superheat6k]

I agree it isn't prudent, but it's what I 'inherited'. That's why I'm adding insulation (among other measures).

On my installation all the ducts run in otherwise sealed / unused spaces not used for storage, so the somewhat loose double aluminium skin with rock wool layer is just fine. I did use some semi rigid aluminium ducting on the longer run ( https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-5m-Alu...var=461873780568&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649 ), and used the outer layers only from the other style of ducting, held in place with several loops of 3M Duct tape. Not particularly attractive but certainly effective.

However, for your set up 10mm Armaflex sheet wrapped around and glued with contact adhesive would provide a neater and effective set up, especially if you can put the glue line out of sight, although I would suggest not using the armaflex for the first 0.5m or so from the heater itself, where the temperature potential from the heater is at its highest.

On my set up I have a 75mm outlet ~ 0.5m from the heater outlet via a 90o position from an 80mm 4 way tee and I haven't insulated this section, using the ducting supplied with the heater for this part. I have added a damper flap that can reduce but not entirely shut off this outlet, to ensure the more distant outlets get their fair share of the air flow. The other two runs to the fwd and aft cabins are ~2 & 4m runs ending in smaller 60mm adjustable / closable vent outlets. I have found that the outlet temperature from all three vents is similar, and hot on the hand not just warm. Even when the main cabin and controller reaches the set point and the heater settles back to idle the air flow from the distant outlets remains nice and warm and positive to these cabins.

The fwd vent will likely find itself closed if used at night because it is right above my daughters berth. For the aft cabin where the outlet sits at the cabin entrance I may remove the closable vents or glue them in position because to maintain full flow cross section at the outlets and with the flow control damper on the primary outlet perhaps in the minimum flow position I may need at least one of the secondary outlets open. This would not be an issue at low heat load, but if the heater suddenly wound up to full, then having both secondary outlets closed with the damper also restricting the primary opening could create a back pressure which could lead to excessive duct temperatures.

I am going to measure the maximum duct surface temperature at the heater outlet with both distant ducts closed and the damper to the primary outlet set to minimum flow position to see if excessive duct surface temperature levels are reached.

I am also going to install an automatic fire extinguisher in the same compartment as the heater.

Heater & Vent system schematic layout ...

Picture of heater with 4 way Tee and primary vent outlet - the opening normally has a closure panel with vent grill installed (NB BEFORE I fitted the exhaust pipe, and the silencer is fully sealed type) ...

 

[CLB]

And so far NIL reports of fires on any of these China-Spachers.

That's not entirely true. There have been reports. Owen Cox stated that he has heard/known of a couple.

I don't think I have read of any on the Facebook page though, and that is populated by hundreds of people who have fitted and used these heaters.

 

[superheat6k]

That's not entirely true. There have been reports. Owen Cox stated that he has heard/known of a couple.

I don't think I have read of any on the Facebook page though, and that is populated by hundreds of people who have fitted and used these heaters.

With greatest respect to Owen Cox, he is importing and selling a different make of heater entirely, so has a clear commercial vested interest here, and if he is making such suggestions he should provide accurate details of such incidents, not just hearsay comments. So far I have not seen this from Owen, nor anyone else, but would welcome referrals to such incidents so I can correct my own statement.

My own statement was based upon the very active Facebook group and comments I have observed going back a year or so now, where as you yourself note NIL reports of units catching fire, yet.

If you read the Facebook Group recently he has criticised my own installation, which is his want, in particular because I have not created a rise in the exhaust before the outlet. I disagree that my installation is unsafe from this aspect because in my view the exhaust outlet is sufficiently far enough above the water line and indeed well above other thru hull outlets also without higher rising pipes, e.g. two bilge pump outlets, which are situated beneath the internal deck level below my heater, and these have been standard set up on this marque of boat for over 30 years - none have sunk. Having the exhaust run downhill all the way from the heater will allow any excess fuel to simply drain away, rather that create vast clouds of smoke which is a common occurrence where exhausts trap unburnt puddles of fuel.

 

[Heckler]

On my installation all the ducts run in otherwise sealed / unused spaces not used for storage, so the somewhat loose double aluminium skin with rock wool layer is just fine. I did use some semi rigid aluminium ducting on the longer run ( https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-5m-Alu...var=461873780568&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649 ), and used the outer layers only from the other style of ducting, held in place with several loops of 3M Duct tape. Not particularly attractive but certainly effective.

However, for your set up 10mm Armaflex sheet wrapped around and glued with contact adhesive would provide a neater and effective set up, especially if you can put the glue line out of sight, although I would suggest not using the armaflex for the first 0.5m or so from the heater itself, where the temperature potential from the heater is at its highest.

On my set up I have a 75mm outlet ~ 0.5m from the heater outlet via a 90o position from an 80mm 4 way tee and I haven't insulated this section, using the ducting supplied with the heater for this part. I have added a damper flap that can reduce but not entirely shut off this outlet, to ensure the more distant outlets get their fair share of the air flow. The other two runs to the fwd and aft cabins are ~2 & 4m runs ending in smaller 60mm adjustable / closable vent outlets. I have found that the outlet temperature from all three vents is similar, and hot on the hand not just warm. Even when the main cabin and controller reaches the set point and the heater settles back to idle the air flow from the distant outlets remains nice and warm and positive to these cabins.

The fwd vent will likely find itself closed if used at night because it is right above my daughters berth. For the aft cabin where the outlet sits at the cabin entrance I may remove the closable vents or glue them in position because to maintain full flow cross section at the outlets and with the flow control damper on the primary outlet perhaps in the minimum flow position I may need at least one of the secondary outlets open. This would not be an issue at low heat load, but if the heater suddenly wound up to full, then having both secondary outlets closed with the damper also restricting the primary opening could create a back pressure which could lead to excessive duct temperatures.

I am going to measure the maximum duct surface temperature at the heater outlet with both distant ducts closed and the damper to the primary outlet set to minimum flow position to see if excessive duct surface temperature levels are reached.

I am also going to install an automatic fire extinguisher in the same compartment as the heater.

Heater & Vent system schematic layout ...

Picture of heater with 4 way Tee and primary vent outlet - the opening normally has a closure panel with vent grill installed (NB BEFORE I fitted the exhaust pipe, and the silencer is fully sealed type) ...

Am well impressed with that neat installation!