Boating whilst under the influence

[Seajet]

The example atemptedly used against me of a car coming at one doing 60mph being equal to a static wall is a load of guph too; both a negative effect on ones' overall day, different results.

Some people try to get through life with the bluster 'I'm a pilot, I must know best'; well some are rather young and haven't flown with amazingly good and occasionally bad bods as I have, one learns it is not just for god-like beings...

 

[AntarcticPilot]

What is sailing under the influence? I can't drink more than about a pint of beer without being liable to fail a breathalyser test for driving; given my preference for "Real Ale", probably less! I accept that my reflexes will probably have been blurred somewhat by even that small amount of alcohol, and that matters when I'm in charge of a machine that routinely does 60-70 miles per hour. But I'm not drunk; my judgement is as good as it ever is, just (perhaps) a bit slower.

Capricious (on a really good day!) does about 7-8 knots, say an eighth of the speed of a car. Furthermore, I'd regard a close encounter with another vessel as being a few hundred metres, not a few metres as with cars. The necessary response times are in minutes or tens of minutes, not seconds or fractions of a second. So, I'd say that I'm not under the influence of alcohol to any detrimental effect on sailing until I've drunk enough to be not in control of my actions - which for me is probably at the several pints mark (it was more when I was younger!). I actually don't usually drink under way, but that's mainly because my wife doesn't drink for medical reasons. But before I re-married, I quite happily had a bottle of beer with my lunch, and felt it was part of the experience.

Written under the influence of half a bottle of red wine!

 

[Slipstream 34]

That is disingenuous. Just from the very fact that there are "Countless fatal car accidents" and relatively few from boats. Most of the car accidents will be major trauma whereas most of the boating ones will be drowning. The Tarbert incident is a pretty rare sort of event isn't it?

This is another one I remember...

http://forargyll.com/2012/07/trial-opens-in-glasgow-of-rib-driver-in-2009-fatality-in-tobermory-bay/

Don't have the inclination to look for more.

I think the argument that it happens less often is a weak one.

The mechanism of injury/death is probably irrelevant to their nearest and dearest.

 

[Babylon]

Wise words... We can add physics to Seajet's long list of misinformed subjects.

Can you please STOP knocking Seajet. He's a welcome and well-meaning member of our community - ie he's family - not some punch-bag for the self-appointed guardians of loveless sanity and beige boating.

 

[epervier]

According to the MCA there is no difference, look on the link, the drink limits are the same for seafarers as for drivers

http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/mgn448.pdf

But, and there's always a but, are we, as leisure boaters classed as professional Masters,pilots,Seamen on duty?

or are we somehow exempt because of the "leisure" status, I think if it came to a court judgement, we'd be classed as masters of our own vessels therefore subject to these MCA rules.

As always only IMHO.

 

[boguing]

I voted yes as if it were 'not moored/anchored' and therefore under way.

As a young person I was racing a lot. Drinking started after the finish gun. Serious drinking after mooring. For at least ten Cowes weeks I didn't drink on fireworks night and neither did most trusted person - so that we could motor out and watch whilst knowing that the crew and others would be as safe as poss.

That paid off when we had an engine problem (YM published that one with a Peyton 'Confessional' sketch!).

As a middle aged man with wife and kids on board, couple of cans at lunch - max.

As a late middle aged man with kids. Nada.

It's not about how pissed you are to have an accident at trivial speeds, it's about how you react in response to it. MOB for example.

 

[lustyd]

Nope not 120mph just equivalent to each driving into a brick wall at 60mph. Mind you, it won't do either any good.

In all my years I've never had a brick wall come at me at 60mph. They are not equivalent at all. The effect of the crash may be similar but that's irrelevant to this topic - driving drunk is considerably harder when things come towards you faster than you are moving towards them. As such, the outcome of the 120mph crash is considerably worse than the 60mph crash with a static object because you may not hit something that's not moving towards you!

 

[awol]

Can you please STOP knocking Seajet. He's a welcome and well-meaning member of our community - ie he's family - not some punch-bag for the self-appointed guardians of loveless sanity and beige boating.

Explains everything - care in the community. The Tories have a lot to answer for.

 

[Slipstream 34]

The example atemptedly used against me of a car coming at one doing 60mph being equal to a static wall is a load of guph too; both a negative effect on ones' overall day, different results.

Some people try to get through life with the bluster 'I'm a pilot, I must know best'; well some are rather young and haven't flown with amazingly good and occasionally bad bods as I have, one learns it is not just for god-like beings...

Newton's third law.... Total force is doubled, but then you have to divide it between the two cars.

Interesting comment coming from the wannabee with an aeroplane avatar.

 

[ukmctc]

Anyone who believes drinking boaters are OK, are as stupid as drinking drivers on the roads.
I've seen drunk drivers and the results first hand and drunk boaters are exactly the same,
There is no difference, both are idiots.
I find these days its a shame we stopped the 11+, we could have used it to sterilise the youth that failed it and prevent breading many years ago, thus saving us the expense of dealing with the results now.

Rant over.....

 

[ukmctc]

All depends doesn't it? Mega horse powered gin palace isn't the same as a Redcrest with a 2hp Mercury 2-stroke. Pissed on a bicycle or foiling Moth are both self-limiting activities but can be amusing to onlookers. If I had to choose my answer is "no".

Geez officer, its only an escort you should be knicking bigger cars, or sorry officer its not my fault he fell out of the dingy and drowned, I was rowing, but hey it was sooo funny.

 

[lustyd]

Anyone who believes drinking boaters are OK, are as stupid as drinking drivers on the roads.
I've seen drunk drivers and the results first hand and drunk boaters are exactly the same,
There is no difference, both are idiots.
I find these days its a shame we stopped the 11+, we could have used it to sterilise the youth that failed it and prevent breading many years ago, thus saving us the expense of dealing with the results now.

Rant over.....

There was a German gentleman who tried this a few years back. Thankfully all of the smart people of the world fought back to give us the freedom we enjoy now. The question is, should we stop you now before you grow too powerful?

 

[Babylon]

Anyone who believes drinking boaters are OK, are as stupid as drinking drivers on the roads.
I've seen drunk drivers and the results first hand and drunk boaters are exactly the same,
There is no difference, both are idiots.
I find these days its a shame we stopped the 11+, we could have used it to sterilise the youth that failed it and prevent breading many years ago, thus saving us the expense of dealing with the results now.

Rant over.....

I think you'll find its spelt breeding

Mind you, my old man reckons that the state should give every seventeen year old a Ferrari, then see what they do with it - it would save Britain a fortune whilst making the country great again.

 

[Babylon]

Interesting comment coming from the wannabee with a aeroplane avatar.

I bet you were popular at school. Why don't you pick on some creep your own size.

 

[ffiill]

It rather depends where you are at the time-for example rat arsed hire boat crews in the Fort Augustus Locks on the Caley Canal-think its funny when they bounce off you!
Similarly fishing boat entering Loch Oich past south Laggan Bridge with captain and crew so p.... that the wedge it across the canal.
If you are out there in the middle of no where be it on your head.A bit like bikers hereabouts who really anger me when they ton it through our village /wrap themselves around a crash barrier and expect sympathy!
If they want to ton it over to the west coast on a fast open road feel free.
My personal worry is that I dont drink much but occasionally when I do its invariably when ashore on a boatingtrip.I wake up the next morning on board totally regretting my stupidity in rowing back to the boat alone and clambering/falling aboard!

 

[Tranona]

All depends doesn't it? Mega horse powered gin palace isn't the same as a Redcrest with a 2hp Mercury 2-stroke. Pissed on a bicycle or foiling Moth are both self-limiting activities but can be amusing to onlookers. If I had to choose my answer is "no".

Far more dangerous being drunk in an Avon. Biggest single cause of boating related deaths is falling in the water on the way back from the pub - either off the pontoon or out of the dinghy. Incidents involving "Mega horse powered gin palaces" whether through drink or other causes are very rare.

Part of the reason why the legislation has not been implemented is that there is little systematic evidence that drink is an issue, and where there are recorded cases there is no pattern about type of boats or usage - except the deaths from dinghies already mentioned. This type of craft would have been excluded from the law anyway!

 

[Tranona]

According to the MCA there is no difference, look on the link, the drink limits are the same for seafarers as for drivers

http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/mgn448.pdf

But, and there's always a but, are we, as leisure boaters classed as professional Masters,pilots,Seamen on duty?

or are we somehow exempt because of the "leisure" status, I think if it came to a court judgement, we'd be classed as masters of our own vessels therefore subject to these MCA rules.

As always only IMHO.

Yes, "we" are exempt. There have been two concerted efforts to extend the regulations to include leisure sailors as allowed by the law. Both have foundered on three counts. First the lack of any evidence that drinking is a significant cause of leisure boating accidents. Second defining when, where and to whom the limits apply - see my comment on dinghies above as an example and the various comments from others about definition of boating activity. Finally the cost and difficulty of applying and enforcing the limits.

Laws or bye laws already exist that allow prosecution for excess drinking, and they do tend to rely on drink/drive limits as a definition. However what is missing is the offence of exceeding the limit per se rather than being charged as a consequence of an accident. The normal procedure would be to prosecute for the unsafe action as it is usually easier to get convictions for this. Prosecuting for drinking may also be added but authorities are not equipped to test on the spot in a way that constitutes good evidence.

 

[prv]

It rather depends where you are at the time-for example rat arsed hire boat crews in the Fort Augustus Locks on the Caley Canal-think its funny when they bounce off you!

But this is the difference. If they'd done that on the motorway you'd be dead.

Instead you're grumbling about a scratch on your gelcoat, or a bent stanchion, or whatever it may be. Even if it was major hull damage (which seems hard to achieve with the sort of runup available in a lock) it's frustration, insurance claims, a lost season - not having someone lifting you out of your wheelchair to wipe your arse for the rest of your life.

Please - and this is an appeal generally, not aimed at you Ffiill - don't polarise the debate into "sailing around pissed is perfectly ok" vs "drinking on board is just like drink driving" and nothing in between. Even those who never drink near the water themselves, even those who think nobody else should either - even the controlling types who think the state should actively prevent anybody else drinking - ought to be able to recognise that in its potential to cause life-changing (and -ending) harm to innocent bystanders, drink driving is not the same as "drink boating".

Pete

 

[Moonshining]

Geez officer, its only an escort you should be knicking bigger cars, or sorry officer its not my fault he fell out of the dingy and drowned, I was rowing, but hey it was sooo funny.

While I don't drink on the boat unless it's firmly tied up to something, there's a fundamental difference between a RIB or Mobo capable of 20-30knots and a sailing boat bimbling along at a speed equivalent to someone jogging - both in terms of kinetic energy and reaction time needed. Crash into someone/something in a car or a rapidly moving power boat and you're going to cause serious damage. The same thing can't be said for a sailing boat.

 

[Seajet]

One seriously dodgy experience is being a liveaboard at wintertime in a marina, and drink is just the final nail...

I know a marina nearby with pontoons which tilt at low tide, which aren't gritted; when on a boat there and there was ice everywhere I had to keep uphill and bear in mind where the next hand-hold was if I slid, and that was in daylight.

Small wonder the last I heard 3 liveaboards had died there, and that was years ago, probably more now; it was said drink played a part in their expiry, but that's easy to say afterwards by people who weren't there, stone cold sobre it was like playing 'It's a Knockout' with high stakes !