Boat value

[pvb]

That is not true. A friend of mine helped deliver yard-new boats (major yards) from France to the Carribean. He did this 8 times. Twice they had to return the boat to La Rochelle because of serious problems.

Should have delivered German boats!

 

[pvb]

Nonsense. Watch the Utube blog of the couple with a large Bavaria who suggest not going too far for the first year of ownership due to the amount of work needed to fix problems!

You haven't bothered to give a link, so I haven't seen it. However, some buyers specify a lot of aftermarket fitted items which can give trouble. The boats which come straight out of the Bavaria factory are built to a high standard. Many of them go straight into service as charter yachts, and charter companies don't want to spend time and money fixing faults. If they found themselves doing that, they'd stop buying Bavarias.

 

[flaming]

You haven't bothered to give a link, so I haven't seen it. However, some buyers specify a lot of aftermarket fitted items which can give trouble. The boats which come straight out of the Bavaria factory are built to a high standard. Many of them go straight into service as charter yachts, and charter companies don't want to spend time and money fixing faults. If they found themselves doing that, they'd stop buying Bavarias.

I admire your enthusiasm for modern boats, but the reality is that commissioning a new boat does inevitably involve a lot of snagging. A lot of it might not be the fault of the manufacturer, but it's an incredibly rare boat that requires no remedial work within the 1st year of ownership.

 

[pvb]

I admire your enthusiasm for modern boats, but the reality is that commissioning a new boat does inevitably involve a lot of snagging. A lot of it might not be the fault of the manufacturer, but it's an incredibly rare boat that requires no remedial work within the 1st year of ownership.

Well, I bought my current boat new 7 years ago. It had one problem - not a fault as such but an option which hadn't been fitted in the factory. Bavaria sent a team of guys over from Germany and sorted it.

Out of interest, how many new boats have you bought? And how recently?

 

[flaming]

Well, I bought my current boat new 7 years ago. It had one problem - not a fault as such but an option which hadn't been fitted in the factory. Bavaria sent a team of guys over from Germany and sorted it.

Out of interest, how many new boats have you bought? And how recently?

Personally that I was directly paying for none, but my Dad bought 2 in a 10 year period. Last in 2005. That 2005 boat had to be refused for a pretty major fault and they had a whole other go at building it. After 6 months we had a snag list that ran to a couple of pages of A4. Nothing that kept us off the water, but lots of niggles.
More recently I've been either directly involved in, or closely aware of, probably half a dozen or so new boat commissions through racing. Can't immediately think of one that was completely snag free. But wouldn't really expect them to be either.

 

[geem]

You haven't bothered to give a link, so I haven't seen it. However, some buyers specify a lot of aftermarket fitted items which can give trouble. The boats which come straight out of the Bavaria factory are built to a high standard. Many of them go straight into service as charter yachts, and charter companies don't want to spend time and money fixing faults. If they found themselves doing that, they'd stop buying Bavarias.

 

[pvb]

Personally that I was directly paying for none, but my Dad bought 2 in a 10 year period. Last in 2005. That 2005 boat had to be refused for a pretty major fault and they had a whole other go at building it. After 6 months we had a snag list that ran to a couple of pages of A4. Nothing that kept us off the water, but lots of niggles.
More recently I've been either directly involved in, or closely aware of, probably half a dozen or so new boat commissions through racing. Can't immediately think of one that was completely snag free. But wouldn't really expect them to be either.

2005 was 16 years ago, and boatbuilding has changed dramatically in that time. Today's production boats are built to higher accuracy than ever before, in factories which are more akin to car plants than boatyards.

 

[Tranona]

Nonsense. Watch the Utube blog of the couple with a large Bavaria who suggest not going too far for the first year of ownership due to the amount of work needed to fix problems!

That is simply not a good example. The owner himself admitted that he made a big mistake in buying one of the first of a totally new design with an unrealistic timescale - and then further complicated it by adding a whole range of extras that were again totally new. The yard was going through insolvency and restructuring at the time and the dealer had never commissioned such a complex boat, which he then sailed to the Med (with a skipper because he had so little experience) where the dealer and the factory fixed his snagging problems. None of the problems were related to the basic boat.

He admitted that he has ended up with just the boat he wanted - for substantially less than having a semi custom built boat from a smaller builder - where he would likely have experienced similar issues anyway.

Much more typical is my experience of buying 2 new boats from the same factory, one through the Greek dealer and one through the same UK dealer. Both were delivered exactly on time with no snagging issues. The first one did 7 trouble free years of chartering. The second is now in its 6th year and only two significant issues, one with the Garmin system and the other with the Volvo electronics, both quickly dealt with by the manufacturers under warranty. The key in both cases was buying a well established model with well proven makes and types of equipment and allowing ample time for commissioning.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Having done some upgrades and maintenance recently it’s got me thinking about boat value. I reckon to get my boat in “new” condition it would cost the same as a new boat overall. Then I got thinking that brand new boats often need a year of sailing to get the niggles out. With this in mind would a 12 month old boat be worth more than a new one? Or would a year or wear equal or beat that additional value? Obviously the value will reduce from there but surely peak value is not on the day of commissioning but once the boat is fully sorted?

Rival 41C, launched 1974, value increase experience, recent refit.

My boat has a certain value based on the valuation and condition survey when I bought the boat in 2008.

I have had the interior refurbished and refitted using a combination of DIY and shipwrights and trades. Basically grunt work was carried out by me, skilled and trades work was carried out by professionals.

At the 10 year insurance survey I had to fight tooth and nail to get the value increased by the surveyor a measly amount, about 10% increase. The actual costs of refit was about 50% of the boat cost, maybe a bit more, over 5 years in total, with 3 on the hard.

The boat looks good but is still an old boat but shines up very well: new sails and canvass work, new galley, new chart table, gas system replaced, new cushions, old woodwork replaced or re-veneered, all head linings replaced, running rigging replaced, standing rigging replaced, various upgrades, all windows refurbished, new fore hatch, old shit removed.

Pretty sure that the surveyor uses a table of actual selling prices and he may be right as Rivals do not sell for much. Survey was 2019.

The only way I can get value from the money spent on the boat is to keep it for a long time. If not it is a right off cost should I sell the boat.

Not exactly on topic but it is experience from the other end of the scale.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

New boats from the major manufacturers are pretty well 100% correct on delivery. That's because they use CNC machines to produce the boats with millimetric accuracy. Smaller boatbuilders won't have the same advantages, so "snagging" will be much more common.

I have rarely heard of a hull fault on any boat old or new. That is all millimetric accuracy will prevent on the initial build. There are many old boats with perfectly sound hulls and almost zero resale value - its the engine, fuel system, rigging, electrics and instruments that give real value (plus if a warship, the cannon and rocket launchers) - and these are the bits that give trouble and wear out

 

[Concerto]

When I bought Concerto, Westerly Fulmar launched 1980, and chatted to my insurer (N&G) about the work I planned to do, they were happy to insure the boat for considerably more than the purchase price. Recently I have talked to them about Concerto and they are still happy with the declared value. They have been shown my PowerPoint presentation about the improvements and know she is in well above average condition. Like BlowingOldBoots, it has cost me far more than the declared value and I plan not to sell for at least 10 years so I get the benefit of getting the boat exactly as I want it. So many people have asked me if I would sell Concerto to them, as condition is everything on a 40 year old boat. Most other Fulmar owners hate mooring close to me as it makes their Fulmar look tired and in need of work.

 

[flaming]

2005 was 16 years ago, and boatbuilding has changed dramatically in that time. Today's production boats are built to higher accuracy than ever before, in factories which are more akin to car plants than boatyards.

The racing boats are not 16 years ago though. One was 2019. Again, not major faults, but a bit of snagging.

Look I basically agree that new boat build quality, and QC in particular is a lot, lot better than it used to be. You're claiming too much of it though.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Thats interesting Concerto. At the end of the day I am paying insurance on an agreed value. I may approach my insurer with the costs and see what they say. Obviously the premium would go up.

 

[doris]

Should have delivered German boats!

Err, with due respect, total tosh!!! In my experience anyway.

 

[dunedin]

That is not true. A friend of mine helped deliver yard-new boats (major yards) from France to the Carribean. He did this 8 times. Twice they had to return the boat to La Rochelle because of serious problems.

Also heard of quite a few expensive Scandinavian boats that turned around on the delivery trips and headed back to the builders yard for some serious snagging work. With one exception they were in the end pleased with their choices.

 

[doris]

2005 was 16 years ago, and boatbuilding has changed dramatically in that time. Today's production boats are built to higher accuracy than ever before, in factories which are more akin to car plants than boatyards.

I reckon that applies to Ben, Bav and Jen plus maybe Hanse. I can’t think of anyone else who has the volume and finance to produce as you describe. Also they have subs such as hHanse/Dehler where the volume just isn’t there. If you consider RM, Alubat, the Cherbourg lot, the Scandies and the Dutch, the smaller plastic French , Elan, +++++ you’re nowhere near car maker technology.

 

[Mark-1]

The boats which come straight out of the Bavaria factory are built to a high standard. Many of them go straight into service as charter yachts, and charter companies don't want to spend time and money fixing faults. If they found themselves doing that, they'd stop buying Bavarias.

I chartered for a few years with a company that used brand new Bavarias replaced on a 3 year cycle.

They thought they were excellent boats but they said there were frequently snags with new boats. They became a Bavaria dealership which helped greatly with getting stuff fixed.

No criticism of Bavarias, excellent boats, but based on that sample of one, even the current high standards in boat building appear not to be quite up to the car manufacturers (yet).

Having said that, where possible, I always choose a boat in its first season (doesn't cost any more) so I guess that means I take the view theres no substitute for new. (My own boat is 50 years old and I'm confident it has more snags than when it was built!)

(Just realized this was 10 years ago, so maybe there has been an improvement on their already high consistent quality.)

 

[lustyd]

Yes I think Bavaria completely changed their business from mass production to more of a premium brand with fewer boats made so it could be they are better now.

 

[Tranona]

Yes I think Bavaria completely changed their business from mass production to more of a premium brand with fewer boats made so it could be they are better now.

Rather the opposite, I think. Both of my boats (and pvb's) were from the mass production era. In 2001Bavaria built over 2000 boats and for the popular models there was an 18 month waiting list. This was big expansion time for the charter business. The Greek operator I bought mine through had 63 boats for that season alone. They were delivered to Isola in Slovenia, commissioned there and sailed down to Greece. I took delivery of mine in Corfu and went off or a couple of weeks. Everything worked and broadly stayed that way for the next 7 years.

That volume market for mainly under 12m boats charter boats has collapsed because of the longevity of the boats in use and general overcapacity, even before Covid. The growth market for charter is for larger boats which is where Bavaria has moved, and which caused their recent problems, offering larger more complex boats but using the same production techniques of modular fitout and much wider choice of layouts and equipment within the same basic hull. That gives a very broad range from a basic equipped charter boat to a fully loaded private boat competing with the semi custom builders. The latter can cost up to twice the amount of the former, but still substantially less than the competitors.

In the jargon it is "mass customisation". Instructive to look at the order form for something like a C55. Pages and pages of choices in layouts, engines, rigs, entertaining equipment, electronics before you get to the finishes and furnishing or domestic equipment. Doubt they will ever make 2 identical boats! However, underneath all that is the same basic production methods used in the earlier higher volume ranges. As I observed in post #28 this is likely to introduce far more problems in the commissioning stage and therefore potentially to greater customer dissatisfaction.

So, not really a premium brand, just the same brand values but in a different market.

 

[Mark-1]

Yes I think Bavaria completely changed their business from mass production to more of a premium brand with fewer boats made so it could be they are better now.

Making less boats might make quality worse not better, my personal bias is towards the view that lower volume is a killer for consistent quality.