Boat value

[Tranona]

Making less boats might make quality worse not better, my personal bias is towards the view that lower volume is a killer for consistent quality.

+1

 

[geem]

That is simply not a good example. The owner himself admitted that he made a big mistake in buying one of the first of a totally new design with an unrealistic timescale - and then further complicated it by adding a whole range of extras that were again totally new. The yard was going through insolvency and restructuring at the time and the dealer had never commissioned such a complex boat, which he then sailed to the Med (with a skipper because he had so little experience) where the dealer and the factory fixed his snagging problems. None of the problems were related to the basic boat.

He admitted that he has ended up with just the boat he wanted - for substantially less than having a semi custom built boat from a smaller builder - where he would likely have experienced similar issues anyway.

Much more typical is my experience of buying 2 new boats from the same factory, one through the Greek dealer and one through the same UK dealer. Both were delivered exactly on time with no snagging issues. The first one did 7 trouble free years of chartering. The second is now in its 6th year and only two significant issues, one with the Garmin system and the other with the Volvo electronics, both quickly dealt with by the manufacturers under warranty. The key in both cases was buying a well established model with well proven makes and types of equipment and allowing ample time for commissioning.

Its probably more typical than you think. Boats have got bigger in recent years and more complex. They are a far cry from 30 something foot boats that are now considered relatively small. Lots of first time sailors seem to be buying bigger and bigger boats. Just because a boat was specified with extras shouldnt be an issue. The systems should work and be installed professionally. The issue isn't unique to a Bavaria. Lagoon cats have appalling problems. These are often very basic design and construction issues.

 

[Skylark]

Making less boats might make quality worse not better, my personal bias is towards the view that lower volume is a killer for consistent quality.

+1

My boat, bought new, is 2013. I had almost all of the Simrad electronics replaced under warranty but the boat, with lots of options, was fine. One of the major appeals for me was that it had the benefit of being "mass produced". My experience is Automotive and in this industry low volume simply cannot compete with high volume.

 

[Tranona]

Its probably more typical than you think. Boats have got bigger in recent years and more complex. They are a far cry from 30 something foot boats that are now considered relatively small. Lots of first time sailors seem to be buying bigger and bigger boats. Just because a boat was specified with extras shouldnt be an issue. The systems should work and be installed professionally. The issue isn't unique to a Bavaria. Lagoon cats have appalling problems. These are often very basic design and construction issues.

The point I was making is that it is not typical of Bavaria (or the other big builders) as until recently their major volumes were in smaller, simpler boats like mine which are largely trouble free. I agree with you that it is typical of larger more complex boats - and always has been, particularly from low volume builders. As others have pointed out, the snagging problems are more to do with electrical/electronic/domestic equipment than either the basic structure or sailing gear. It is the "extras" which are in fact "standard" for the specification that give all the problems because they come from multiple manufacturers and many are small volume producers who simply don't have the back up to make them perform to the standards required or provide good after sales service. I am sure you have watched folks trying to cope with delays due to failed watermakers/fridges/washing machines/autopilots/nav gear etc.

 

[geem]

The point I was making is that it is not typical of Bavaria (or the other big builders) as until recently their major volumes were in smaller, simpler boats like mine which are largely trouble free. I agree with you that it is typical of larger more complex boats - and always has been, particularly from low volume builders. As others have pointed out, the snagging problems are more to do with electrical/electronic/domestic equipment than either the basic structure or sailing gear. It is the "extras" which are in fact "standard" for the specification that give all the problems because they come from multiple manufacturers and many are small volume producers who simply don't have the back up to make them perform to the standards required or provide good after sales service. I am sure you have watched folks trying to cope with delays due to failed watermakers/fridges/washing machines/autopilots/nav gear etc.

It may not be typical of Bavaria. I couldnt comment. However, I have seen a new Legend with multiple areas of crazed gelcoat around chainplates, Lagoon cats with cracked bulkheads, windows popping out and lots of leaks. These are basic structural issues

 

[Blueboatman]

I think the OP could be on to something
Ie we expect a one year old boat to be 10% depreciated . Yet it will possibly have +10% in useful gear . AND 12months of warranty work ( if needed) . AND sea trialed perhaps too!

 

[xcw]

The point I was making is that it is not typical of Bavaria (or the other big builders) as until recently their major volumes were in smaller, simpler boats like mine which are largely trouble free. I agree with you that it is typical of larger more complex boats - and always has been, particularly from low volume builders. As others have pointed out, the snagging problems are more to do with electrical/electronic/domestic equipment than either the basic structure or sailing gear. It is the "extras" which are in fact "standard" for the specification that give all the problems because they come from multiple manufacturers and many are small volume producers who simply don't have the back up to make them perform to the standards required or provide good after sales service. I am sure you have watched folks trying to cope with delays due to failed watermakers/fridges/washing machines/autopilots/nav gear etc.

I have bought 2 new Bavaria's the latest being a 2014 Bav 41. All of the problems I have had have related to the ancillaries; the Garmin Autohelm and plotter (needed replacing) and the SidePower bowthruster (broken twice). The actual boat has been bullet proof . My previous boat was a 2002 Bav 36 which I had for 10 years, the only thing that failed on it was the fuel gauge. Pretty good reliability.

 

[TernVI]

I think the OP could be on to something
Ie we expect a one year old boat to be 10% depreciated . Yet it will possibly have +10% in useful gear . AND 12months of warranty work ( if needed) . AND sea trialed perhaps too!

If somebody is selling their boat after a year, I'm inclined to ask why?

To me, the waiting time and build time would put me off buying new.
I guess it's different e.g. for someone knowing they will retire in 18 months, or who already has a similar boat which is just getting due for a 'mid life update'.

I'm not sure there is any pattern with 'quality'.
Some low volume operations have low overheads.

There is a big fundamental question, what exactly are we paying for and is it adding value that the consumer appreciates?
It's easy for a lot of money to be spent on pleasing 'experts' while the consumer sees no benefit.
Equally bespoke stuff can eat up a lot of money satisfying the peculiar taste of the first owner, but the second owner sees little value in that.

 

[lustyd]

If somebody is selling their boat after a year, I'm inclined to ask why?

With cars it's hire companies rotating stock. I'd certainly consider a one year old ex charter boat that had no snags and was immediately available. My original rambling was more of a conceptual value though I think. I do agree that waiting time would be off putting for me, it's a necessary evil due to volumes but that's a heck of a long wait for a new toy!

 

[bitbaltic]

If I were buying a new boat I’d rather buy it without electronics or for that matter sails. The former would be best fitted by me and the latter by sanders and that’s what I would want no matter what. Probably you can’t buy a new boat that way which, for me, is happily academic.

I’ve only known one couple who bought a new boat and they had no end of problems (a Jenneau) but to be honest they did not really know what they were buying or what they were doing.

 

[Tranona]

If I were buying a new boat I’d rather buy it without electronics or for that matter sails. The former would be best fitted by me and the latter by sanders and that’s what I would want no matter what. Probably you can’t buy a new boat that way which, for me, is happily academic.

I’ve only known one couple who bought a new boat and they had no end of problems (a Jenneau) but to be honest they did not really know what they were buying or what they were doing.

I agree about the sails, but not about the electronics or any other system. IF the builder is properly organised and has worked out exactly how best to install the gear it is better and cheaper to have them do it. This is particularly true with the latest nav systems. The cost of the Garmin system, Lewmar windlass, extra winches, Sidepower bow thruster for example as packages were roughly the same as the retail cost of the bits. This is not true of small volume builders where the cost of extras (many of which are essential) can be outrageous. This reality came out when I was preparing my short list which originally had a well known Scandinavian boat on it. The base price was not so much higher than the mass producers, but when you worked your way through the extras list, not only were individual items (like the bow thruster) substantially more expensive, but the number of options to get to a desired spec was greater. So a 35% difference in base price became 80% to similar specs!

However with sails, production builders have usually a standard set of sails and then probably a couple of options, sometimes bundled with other upgrades. They won't give a rebate for having no sails and in my case the option cost more than having the equivalent made elsewhere rather than just reflecting the difference in cost. This was a basic model boat and other builders are more flexible or offer performance boats which have no sails as standard.

 

[Tranona]

I do agree that waiting time would be off putting for me, it's a necessary evil due to volumes but that's a heck of a long wait for a new toy!

The wait does not have to be long. Dealers often have stock new boats, or reserved build slots. In my case the builder released a small number of slots for July build in April. I signed the contract in May, boat was delivered exactly to my spec at the end of July . 3 weeks for commissioning, including having the Coppercoat applied and I sailed it away.

Of course once you move away from volume models or want a particularly popular model things vary. In reality though people often spend months if not years trying to buy the used boat they want - and still have to sort out (and fund) all the things that need doing (see this month's YM for an example). With a new boat you can get exactly what you want with a fair chance that everything will work and you can use it straight away. That is what you are paying for, and it is often "cheaper" than you think in terms of value for money and owner satisfaction.

I do appreciate that not all new boat purchases are like that, particularly when you go up in size and complexity, such as The one geem linked to earlier, but in my experience of talking to and working with people who buy in that sector of the market they anticipate that the process is longwinded and plan for it.

 

[lustyd]

I've learned a lot about the new boat buying process on this thread. It would be nice to see a magazine cover the detail of this sort of thing (if it's already been done I missed it!). The further along the boating road I get the more I think buying new is a good option and probably cheaper than what I do with upgrading old ones. That said, the sustainability of building more boats that last 50-100 years seems to be reaching limits. I'm continually surprised there is space to put the new ones

 

[Blueboatman]

What is interesting is that no matter how smart we are or how much money we shuffle around or ‘ buy smart’ or ‘can’t justify that outrageous premium’ or run our boats on clever offshore plans, w’ever, no matter which way you put the figures, we just don’t live many more years on this planet !
And along comes C19 and ‘steals’ a whole years boat planning buying or fettling..
So buying once, buying right, sailing away now makes sense to the market , new and used , is my impression ...

 

[Zing]

Having done some upgrades and maintenance recently it’s got me thinking about boat value. I reckon to get my boat in “new” condition it would cost the same as a new boat overall. Then I got thinking that brand new boats often need a year of sailing to get the niggles out. With this in mind would a 12 month old boat be worth more than a new one? Or would a year or wear equal or beat that additional value? Obviously the value will reduce from there but surely peak value is not on the day of commissioning but once the boat is fully sorted?

I’ve done that calculation. In fact I do it regularly. I did it when I bought the then 10 year old boat 10 years ago and I did it recently with a 20 year old boat as I wonder about keeping it or not another decade. The answer has always been the same. It is much cheaper to refit. Total boat ownership costs including repair bills over the last decade have added up to about a fifth of the all inclusive comparable costs of a notional new boat, had I bought one instead 10 years ago. Depreciation and opportunity costs being by far the biggest costs. The only price I have paid is non financial. Not having the pleasure of owning the best and shiniest toy in the marina and having to invest extra time in fixing things.

Now that I am 10 years older and ten years richer I care less about saving money, so I may well get a new boat anyway. As soon as I see one I like a lot better than mine, I will do it. That’s the way it works. The old and wealthy take the financial penalties, which the younger ones with less time and money benefit from. Natural justice amongst boaters.

 

[lustyd]

The question though, is whether your refit calculation is cheaper because you made do or whether you actually did a real refit? I'd expect a real refit to include standing rigging, new sail suite, complete new electronics, complete rewire, and a full engine overhaul.
Going back to the original post though, a recently refitted boat would potentially have the same niggles as new, and therefore a slightly less recently refitted boat might present more value.

 

[Zing]

All the above done and more. You don’t get to 20 years without it. No full engine rebuild though. That’s a requirement only on ancient, or very badly maintained engines.

 

[lustyd]

haha I think a lot of people ignore all of that for 20 years and more!