tcm
...
Sevenstar and their uk agency Yacht Shipping Limited (ysl) advertise in the uk boaty mags, and readers might well be tempted to book for transporting their boat through them. My advice is very strongly DON'T do this. Use someone else, or drive it yourself, as my experience below relates.
Last year '03 I decided to move the boat back to the uk for an early season, then spend the summer wafting back down the atlantic coast to the med. SWMBO thort i was mad, but i was actually a bit bored of floating about a bit in a fifty miles stretch of tideless med water rather than going anywhere new.
I got quotes for shipping, and eventually decided to drive the boat to Gib over easter school holidays with family, then have it put on a ship from there - saving vat cos from Gib, see?
I contacted a chap in Gib who wanted £27k erk, Peters and May who wanted about £17k, and YSL who wanted £15750. It's important to recognise that all these are agents for shipping, and don't own ships themselves. So, you could be on the same ship as others booked thru loads of different agents.
The way it works is a bit strnage. They take your name and boat info, then at the last minute tie down the details with a contract. So, i heard nothing at all until a month or so before the planned sailing times, when P&M and YSL asked again if i was interested. Yep. So both sent copntracts, and i chose the cheapest - cos what's the difference - same service innit? Bad move.
I signed a contract with Sevenstar, and YSL continulally refer to "their principals in Holland". The contract gives a range of dates during which the boat will be picked up and the transport starts. But still P&M called and called again, knocking lumps out of YSL, and vice versa. "They won't be able to make those dates" or "they haven;t got a ship , you know" and so on. It was as if you were in in tescos and a sainsbury's assistant sidled up and started slagging offf the fruit - "they're all past their sell-by date you know - we have the same supplier". Very un-nerving.
YSL pressed hard for payment to be made 2 weeks before the sailing date. We hadn't had confirmation of an actual sailing date, but apparently that comes later. I sent the cheque.
Within a couple of days (i have all the correspondence dates etc) they called to say that the original range of dates wouldn't be achieved - so it wouldn't be between 28th April and 5th May as on the contract but on the 10rth May.
I went bonkers. They must have known that they wouldn't be able to make the dates before taking the cheque, waited *just* long enough to cash it - then made the call. The lady at YSL denied this. I called them liars, and still think the same. I rented a boat to make the mercury meeting.
P&M rang, a chap this time, and asked if we wanted to come on another ship. I said i was contrcated to go with sevenstar and ysl . But the P&M guy was adamant "there's a range of dates- called the "lay" (sp) time" - box 6 in the contract - and if they miss those dates they are out of contract and they refund the money no question." said the chap at P+M.
Although i found out that this is the norm, I was wary at the time. Boat in sotogrande clocking up summertime fees, most of 16k in someone else's hands, and a new contract date of 12th may would be later (and a bit more expensive) than ysl were now telling me. So i didn't jump.
Soon, YSL said they had "named the ship", which means they have contracted the ship to do take their load, and it would be loading in Gib on 14thMay. Argh, you said 10th! Damn. Anyway, I orgainsed the suncoast gang to do the move to gib, only 10 miles. it seemed okay. But i wasn't pleased.
I asked YSL at what poiint they gave up and refunded money. they couldn't or wouldn't say. But they did say that the boat would definitely defintely be in Gib on the 14th, no question, no need for Lay times now - it's a fixed date.
A little later and of course the date oops moved to the 20th May. With good weather in Biscay I then decided to drive it , and fouind trazie and Burgundyben to do the move.
At the same time I sent an email to YSL saying that they were out of contract, and please refund. They offered a £2k discount. I said no. They said that they had expenses. I said i had lawyers. They said they had spent money on fixings for the boat on the ship. Hm, what fixings and how much? Well, it's some wood, and it's €4,000 euros. Jeez, look, just give us our money back it's in the contract. We'll send it to our legal department, said sevenstar.
Suncoasts lot were very useful anyway 0 in gettingthe boat started which had dead or very weak bateries - i replaced the batteries when back in the uk.
As we were driving back to the uk, somewhere off Brest, i had a call on mobile from a sevenstar agent in Gib telling me the ship was ready for loading. This seemed like a ruse to avoid giving a refund altogether. I returned to uk with the boat, resigned to the idea of spending enough money to ship the boat, plus enough money to drive it, gulp.
The efforts of SWMBO to get a refund were fabulously assisted by two forumites (whom i will not mention here but they know who they are and thankyou v much again).
One forumite is in/near the legal profession who knew a specialist lawyer in a (or perhaps the ultimate) top law firm, another in the shipping industry whose specialist legal contact also read the contract in detail. Both legals peeps (to whom i am indebted and thankyou very much again) were of the same opinion - that the fine detail of Sevenstar's contract allows them to move and move and move the dates, and never refund the money. It seemed that they didn't even need to do any shipping, provided that they kept advising of later and later shipping dates. They were also well along a line aof agencies, so again a bit dificult to get at them, quite apart from them being in Holland. One of the legal experts expressed surprise that sevenstar are still in business and has come across them before. Again, of course, we are very grateful for the help from these legal experts.
Sevenstar did refund most but not all our money, but less the rather arbitrary €4000 euros, which feels remarkably like their profit margin. But they didn't need to make any refund according to the legals, and there seems no chance of them refunding any more without a huge and flaky foreign legal battle, and it isn't worth it.
If i shipped a boat again, i wd talk to Peters and May. Or i would talk to "dockexpress" but from a mechanical viewpoint - the boat sits "in" a ship rather than atop it, and hence less possibility of damage or being swept overboard - which can happen, i hear.
I wd most certainly NOT use YSL sevenstar, ever, and wd recommend that perhaps the magazines might want to reconsider carrying their advertising - until they adopt a contract whereby the "lay time" date range is achieved or they refund the money, as i belive is normal shipping practice. Peters and May clearly believe that sevenstar (and everyone else) follows this simple rule. But sevensatsr do not do this, and their contract permits it.
So, there we are - another interesting bit of boat-related advice for you all NOT to do something that i have attempted at the personal expense of a few grand, damnit.
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Last year '03 I decided to move the boat back to the uk for an early season, then spend the summer wafting back down the atlantic coast to the med. SWMBO thort i was mad, but i was actually a bit bored of floating about a bit in a fifty miles stretch of tideless med water rather than going anywhere new.
I got quotes for shipping, and eventually decided to drive the boat to Gib over easter school holidays with family, then have it put on a ship from there - saving vat cos from Gib, see?
I contacted a chap in Gib who wanted £27k erk, Peters and May who wanted about £17k, and YSL who wanted £15750. It's important to recognise that all these are agents for shipping, and don't own ships themselves. So, you could be on the same ship as others booked thru loads of different agents.
The way it works is a bit strnage. They take your name and boat info, then at the last minute tie down the details with a contract. So, i heard nothing at all until a month or so before the planned sailing times, when P&M and YSL asked again if i was interested. Yep. So both sent copntracts, and i chose the cheapest - cos what's the difference - same service innit? Bad move.
I signed a contract with Sevenstar, and YSL continulally refer to "their principals in Holland". The contract gives a range of dates during which the boat will be picked up and the transport starts. But still P&M called and called again, knocking lumps out of YSL, and vice versa. "They won't be able to make those dates" or "they haven;t got a ship , you know" and so on. It was as if you were in in tescos and a sainsbury's assistant sidled up and started slagging offf the fruit - "they're all past their sell-by date you know - we have the same supplier". Very un-nerving.
YSL pressed hard for payment to be made 2 weeks before the sailing date. We hadn't had confirmation of an actual sailing date, but apparently that comes later. I sent the cheque.
Within a couple of days (i have all the correspondence dates etc) they called to say that the original range of dates wouldn't be achieved - so it wouldn't be between 28th April and 5th May as on the contract but on the 10rth May.
I went bonkers. They must have known that they wouldn't be able to make the dates before taking the cheque, waited *just* long enough to cash it - then made the call. The lady at YSL denied this. I called them liars, and still think the same. I rented a boat to make the mercury meeting.
P&M rang, a chap this time, and asked if we wanted to come on another ship. I said i was contrcated to go with sevenstar and ysl . But the P&M guy was adamant "there's a range of dates- called the "lay" (sp) time" - box 6 in the contract - and if they miss those dates they are out of contract and they refund the money no question." said the chap at P+M.
Although i found out that this is the norm, I was wary at the time. Boat in sotogrande clocking up summertime fees, most of 16k in someone else's hands, and a new contract date of 12th may would be later (and a bit more expensive) than ysl were now telling me. So i didn't jump.
Soon, YSL said they had "named the ship", which means they have contracted the ship to do take their load, and it would be loading in Gib on 14thMay. Argh, you said 10th! Damn. Anyway, I orgainsed the suncoast gang to do the move to gib, only 10 miles. it seemed okay. But i wasn't pleased.
I asked YSL at what poiint they gave up and refunded money. they couldn't or wouldn't say. But they did say that the boat would definitely defintely be in Gib on the 14th, no question, no need for Lay times now - it's a fixed date.
A little later and of course the date oops moved to the 20th May. With good weather in Biscay I then decided to drive it , and fouind trazie and Burgundyben to do the move.
At the same time I sent an email to YSL saying that they were out of contract, and please refund. They offered a £2k discount. I said no. They said that they had expenses. I said i had lawyers. They said they had spent money on fixings for the boat on the ship. Hm, what fixings and how much? Well, it's some wood, and it's €4,000 euros. Jeez, look, just give us our money back it's in the contract. We'll send it to our legal department, said sevenstar.
Suncoasts lot were very useful anyway 0 in gettingthe boat started which had dead or very weak bateries - i replaced the batteries when back in the uk.
As we were driving back to the uk, somewhere off Brest, i had a call on mobile from a sevenstar agent in Gib telling me the ship was ready for loading. This seemed like a ruse to avoid giving a refund altogether. I returned to uk with the boat, resigned to the idea of spending enough money to ship the boat, plus enough money to drive it, gulp.
The efforts of SWMBO to get a refund were fabulously assisted by two forumites (whom i will not mention here but they know who they are and thankyou v much again).
One forumite is in/near the legal profession who knew a specialist lawyer in a (or perhaps the ultimate) top law firm, another in the shipping industry whose specialist legal contact also read the contract in detail. Both legals peeps (to whom i am indebted and thankyou very much again) were of the same opinion - that the fine detail of Sevenstar's contract allows them to move and move and move the dates, and never refund the money. It seemed that they didn't even need to do any shipping, provided that they kept advising of later and later shipping dates. They were also well along a line aof agencies, so again a bit dificult to get at them, quite apart from them being in Holland. One of the legal experts expressed surprise that sevenstar are still in business and has come across them before. Again, of course, we are very grateful for the help from these legal experts.
Sevenstar did refund most but not all our money, but less the rather arbitrary €4000 euros, which feels remarkably like their profit margin. But they didn't need to make any refund according to the legals, and there seems no chance of them refunding any more without a huge and flaky foreign legal battle, and it isn't worth it.
If i shipped a boat again, i wd talk to Peters and May. Or i would talk to "dockexpress" but from a mechanical viewpoint - the boat sits "in" a ship rather than atop it, and hence less possibility of damage or being swept overboard - which can happen, i hear.
I wd most certainly NOT use YSL sevenstar, ever, and wd recommend that perhaps the magazines might want to reconsider carrying their advertising - until they adopt a contract whereby the "lay time" date range is achieved or they refund the money, as i belive is normal shipping practice. Peters and May clearly believe that sevenstar (and everyone else) follows this simple rule. But sevensatsr do not do this, and their contract permits it.
So, there we are - another interesting bit of boat-related advice for you all NOT to do something that i have attempted at the personal expense of a few grand, damnit.
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