Boat transporting: warning re YSL and Sevenstar

[Seven]

L.s.,

A story always has two sides, also this story. Indeed it is very unfortunate for the Yacht owner that he was not shipped in time. On the other hand he was kept informed from the beginning about the position of the vessel who was planned to ship this yacht.
Since performing vessel was delaying due to bad weather on the East Coast of Spain we offered the Yacht Owner a 2000 Pound discount to cover his port cost in Gibraltar since he had to stay there longer then planned.

As for the costs: the cost paid (2700 pounds) in the end are not for wood, we load yachts in a need manner and to do that we use specialized motor yacht cradles which were shipped to Gibraltar from the U.K. . Other cost are of course the port cost of the performing vessel that called Gibraltar to pick up the yacht and the Southampton call. To call a port, man has to pay a lot of money. Those things are unfortunately not for free.

And last but not least if we can keep all the money and do not ship your yacht under the contract why did we refund almost all the money? Because that is never our intention. We discharged 3 yachts on the 28th of May in Southampton without any problems. That is our work and that is what we do: Ship yachts.

In case you have any further question please do not hesitate to ask.

Yours sincerely,

Jan Maarten Boissevain
Sevenstar Yacht Transport B.V.



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[tcm]

to Jan Maarten, sevenstar

hello again, Jan Maarten

The contract made no mention of any costs that will be held back at all.

You gave a specific time frame, and failed to make tthat time quite spectacularly - late by almost four weeks. Peter and May are quite clear - you failed to make the contract - you should return the outstanding €4000. Peters and May would have returned the money. In fact - peters and May would not have demanded money in advance. So they would have made no charge.

In any case, €4000 for yacht cradles (which are yours, and you would keep anyway) seems a figure that has been made up - and made to be very big, no? It does not have the charachteristic of accuracy. in any case, supposing you had had other costs, really enourmous costs - i wood not have to pay those, would I . This is because you won the contract on the basis of the price to me - not on the basis of the cost to you , It does not matter to me as the customer if you make 100% profit, or lose money - your costs are not my concern or responsibility.

As for the delay, you now say that the reason for the delay was bad weather in the eastern spain. But there was no bad weather that delayed a big ship 4 weeks - and you previously said that the ship in question was in Italy. YSL reported that the ship was delayed because it had to discharge a shipment of paper in Italy and it was raining(!).

In business, if you fail you do not get to charge. If you went to a shop to buy something, and they said they would be ready in ten minutes, then left you waiting and waiting and waiting and nothing arrived ...they would not charge if you decided to leave after two hours. It does matter if they kept coming along to you and saying "sorry - won't be long now" every ten minutes. This is the same: you were significantly late. Eventually, you would stop believing that they would arrive, and I stopped believing anything.

YSL/sevebnstar contracted to pick up between 28th April and 5th May. Then it changed to the 10th May. Then it changed to the 14th May. Then it changed to the 20th May, and eventually 24th May.


It was not honest to hold back money that you demanded in advance, Jan Maarten.

You should return a cheque to me. It would be good publicity too!

Matthew

 

[Observer]

Re: to Jan Maarten, sevenstar

I don't want to get into the rights and wrongs of this case but would offer the following (not for tcm's benefit but anybody else who is considering shipping a yacht):

1. If the shipping dates are really important, insist that this is made a condition of the contract. A simple way of doing that is by adding or agreeing in writing a provision which states "Time of performance is of the essence of this contract". Add "Notwithstanding anything to the contrary contained elsewhere" if there is a contrary provision in the standard terms and conditions. Then, if shipping date is not met, the breach will amount to 'repudiation' which means you will have right to full refund (at least) or walk away without paying anything if you haven't yet paid. It is likely that any shipping company will be reluctant to concede this but may do so if the 'window' for performance is sufficiently wide.

2. Definite advantage in dealing with a UK company so the contract will be governed by UK law and (equally important) UK courts will have jurisdiction and judgment can be enforced in the UK.



<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://aflcharters.co.uk>Dream Dancer</A>

 

[tcm]

Re: to Jan Maarten, sevenstar

understood, although

1) it is a Dutch contract

2) I understand that a shipping contract normally (but not sevenstar's) tacitly applies the condition of time being the essence. So the moment the lay time lapses the consignee (me) is free to look for another shipper. It is only because they are dealing with general public that they can change the contract, require payment in advance, and withhold it later even when they don't provide a ship - or provide a ship very late.

I can understand that they want money in advance because otherwise individuals would perhaps not have their boat ready. But they are now taking advantage of the situation - it was the ship that was not ready - not me.






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[Observer]

Re: to Jan Maarten, sevenstar

tcm,

I was not really responding to your post - it was just a conveneint place to make a couple of general points for somebody who reads your saga and thinks "How can I try to make sure this can't happen to me".

In your case, I imagine Dutch contract makes/made it harder for you to seek redress? I'm no expert on shipping law and wouldn't presume to try to add or subtract anything to/from the advice you've received.

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://aflcharters.co.uk>Dream Dancer</A>

 

[jfm]

from another 7star customer

Observer,
you are dead right (at least under English law) but the fact is that in general people do not know the legal significance of "time of the essence". And so the point of this story is that Sevenstar take advantage of this and offer a standard contract where time is not of essence, whereas other shippers are nicer and do not charge if ship is late. Hence TCM's suggestion not to use Sevenstar

We shipped a boat to the med by Sevenstar in March and it was reasonably on time so we never had tcm's problem. However I can confirm that the justification claimed for the €2700 charge, namely cradles and port fees, is absurd. Jan Maarten is being disingenous here. The port fees are irrelevant, if the contract was fair it would have been cancelled long beofre Sevenstar's late ship ever got near the port, so not port fees would be incurred. As for cradles, the yachts sit on lumps of softwood under the keel, then cradles are placed under the chines and underside of the yacht. The cradles are welded steel things that slot into or sit on the cargo ship's deck. They adjust to a variety of boat sizes and they would normally have been on board the ship. If for some reason the cradles were not on the ship and had to be transported (from UK? - not even 7star's base?), that is Sevenstar's logistical mess up. The final bit of the process is a load of big yellow webbing ratchet straps to hold the yacht down, and again these are part of the cargo ship's normal yacht transporting gear. Even if Sevenstar's costs were any concern of the customer (which they aren't, as tcm says) it would be unfair of Sevenstar to charge tcm for allegedly transporting these cradles from UK to Gibraltar. I repeat, Jan Maarten is being disingenuous in his post above on this point.

 

[andyfollett]

Re: from another 7star customer

Ive just used used Peters and May for a trip to Gib from Southampton. They kept me informed all the way and even though they were unable to tell me EXACTLY what day i would be loaded (because as with sevenstars and all the others, of course they are in the hands of the ship owner, who is at the demands of his current cargo which is in the hands of the last and next ports etc etc etc). Everything is necessarily vague until the ship starts getting closer to your own load port. As customers of course we want our providers to be accurate and decisive which in the business of shipping is impossible (how many times have we been stuck in a port unable to make for home because of weather, sea, equipment, crew etc) I dont believe either of the big companies are in the business of dishonesty and relevant questions before booking should be.
1. Is the ship you intend using already contractually booked (likely to be a NO unless sailing in the next week or so)
2. Do you have other vessels booked to be loaded/unloaded at my destination (I was bumped off a ship with sevenstars because i alone was booked into Gib. I cant imagine either company will travel up to Antibes to drop 1 40 foot boat?! So you need other boats to make the trip viable. Consequently many owners and yacht manufacturers wait until the last minute before committing which is not ideal for the shipping company and not ideal for us as owners because we dont wish to commit ourselves early but want everyone else to.
3. Do you have other like me waiting for clarity? If so, what types of boats (ask them to be specific about the number, make sizes of other boats that are waiting before committing. If other boats are lining up, they will know specifics.
Peters and May answered all my questions honestly and accurately which from a customers perspective is all I could ask and expect. If you build a picture of their intentions (any shipper) and expect that you will need to be flexible (unless the trip is imminent) you wont be disappointed with Peters and May. Im sure likewise for Sevenstars albeit I jumped into a contract without establishing the details of the trip and then found they couldn't provide the service. (gave speedy refund tho).

 

[sarabande]

Re: from another 7star customer

14 years since the thread started. Is this a record ? Interesting that some of the original Matt problems still occur.

 

[Hurricane]

Re: from another 7star customer

I can't say that my experience with P&M was a pleasant, I'm afraid.

 

[andyfollett]

Re: from another 7star customer

Hi yes I agree. Its the thread I came across when looking into shipping companies so though old ,still relevant and being found by google. I thought I would add my experiences which were positive for both companies. I think by getting a fuller picture of how the companies put these trips together and their business models we can be better informed customers and therefore have better experiences. Certainly i learnt from an earlier error and found that by asking specific questions I received specific answers or at least an acknowledgement that there were questions that could not be answered until closer to departure time. Peters and May got my boat down to Gib at a good price and with good customer service so just wanted to trip adviser their effort!!

I dealt with Richard Howett on their sales team and he was very open and honest throughout.