Boat Stolen but...

[golden14]

My boat was stolen by a so called 'Friend' who has made every excuse going not to pay me (he said he would buy it off me), I have found out he has subsequently sold it, yet I have all the paperwork and am still paying the finance (bit complex so won't bore you all).
I have now found where the boat is located - anyone out there with a legal brain that can tell me if I am within my right to just go and take it back. As my friend pointed out that he didn't think I could be done for stealing back my own boat. Comments please!

 

[alandee]

Your first points of contact are the police and the insurance company as legally you still own the boat. However, if you just take it without informing either you could be in all sorts of trouble. I am not a legal advisor but have been through a similar situation in my youth with a motorbike. Good luck!

 

[sailorbob]

It's your boat, and you have the documentation to prove it, so legally it is yours.

Your "friend" did not have title to the boat and the (innocent, but foolish) buyer should have checked this before parting with the money - Caveat emptor and all that.

Having said that, don't just go and take it, involve the police and get them to go with you to avoid any unpleasantness with the buyer. He will be rightly hacked off and will be out of pocket. Whether he can reclaim the sale price back from your "friend" is down to him and may not be easy to do.

 

[golden14]

Thanks very much for the prompt respose guys, I am now off to see the police tomorrow, after having spoken to them turns out CID are after him on 4 other charges....

 

[golden14]

Further to my earlier e-mail I have spoken to the police and if I can find my boat indeed I can reclaim it legally, after all as they and you have pointed out, you can't steal what you already own. Thus I am making a few additions to my website, photos etc of the boat and target location of where I believe the boat to be in the Southampton area. Then I would ask for all hands on desk on finding it. Believed to be berthed in a Southampton marina more to follow.

 

[lenseman]

PM sent

 

[B175Chris]

Very interesting situation, please let me/us know the outcome or any developments...

Best of luck getting it back!

 

[mattyg]

I am affraid that the advice of the police is not strictly correct. Although by definition the offence of theft is the 'dishonest appropriation of property belonging to another', there have been circumstances where taking ones own property, which at that time is in third party hands, has been held to be theft. See R v Turner, which involves the Theft of Turners own car which he had left for repair at a garage. I would tread very carefully and if you find the vessel allow the police to recover it, dont do it yourself.

 

[golden14]

Matt
Thanks, my aim is to find it and then get the police to impound it until proof of title is sorted. I'm hacked off at the whole thing, not as hacked off as the person who bought it will be. What idiot buys a motorboat with no service history or evidence of any bills, if that volvo penta throws a rod or piston they are looking at £3-5k for a rebuild or 8k+ for a new one....

 

[lenseman]

I am afraid that your reference to Regina v Turner is, in this case misleading in the extreme.

Golden14 did not take his boat to someone for repair and then recover boat without paying for repair. This is the basis of the above case where Turner took his car back without paying and in that case I agree it would be theft.

http://www.kevinboone.com/lawglos_RVTurner1971.html

Goldend14 is only recovering what is rightfully his and he has paperwork to prove title. In this case, a charge of theft will never get past the CPS.

I have done very many recoveries of motor vehicles where the driver had deprived the owner, the Fleet Companies, of ownership and it is always good practice to inform the local plod what is going on and what you intend to do. The police are only too happy to be informed of any case of this nature and I did it for five years.

These poor misguided drivers I had to deal with, were always under the misunderstanding that when the firm whom they worked went bust owing them their salaries, they thought they could keep the company car until they were paid. The company cars were fleet owned and were the property of the Fleet Hire Company for whom I was working.

 

[mattyg]

Not wishing to turn this thread into a law theory forum but: The advice of the police was 'that you can't steal your own property'. You can and Turner is an illustration of this principle. Would the actions be interpreted as dishonest within the meaning of R v Ghosh, I doubt it. However if the current possesor finds property missing and calls the police, there is every likelihood that an arrest will follow, an interview, then another 2 hours awaiting CPS advice or a bail date to return to the police station for advice to be sought. Whilst it is highly unlikely that it would make it to trial, a night in the cells is always best avoided.

 

[lenseman]

Sadly, you are again being misleading, perhaps you are a solicitor?

Regina v Ghosh is a straight case of deception (Theft Act 1968) and has absolutely nothing to do with recovery of your own property to which you have title.

http://www.kevinboone.com/PF_lawglos_RVGhosh1982.html

May I suggest you get on with learning how to present pertinent case law correctly and relevant to this particular job and leave the work of recovery to those who know what they are talking about.

You number among the 'doom and gloom merchants' who tend to always give a negative response to requests for help on these forums.

 

[mattyg]

I really don't want to get in to a slanging match. You do seem to have misunderstood the relevance of Ghosh. It is not restricted to the facts of the case, it sets out a test that is applied in all offences were dishonesty forms part of the 'mens rea'. Yes I am a criminal lawyer, although the advice that I offered was not given in that capacity. Am I being negative? I would rather say 'cautious' . A caution that is preferable to arguing the rights or wrongs of a situation at midnight in a smelly police cell. I was reading the forum as I have an interest in boats and to escape the day job. I t was certainly not my intention to get into a brawl with the forums legal expert. Anyway, my final words. Happy sailing.

 

[DRANNIE]

ok, you can see what I do in my profile but I'm a civil litigater not a criminal lawyer, this post does not constitute legal advice.

I agree to an extent with the caution about simply taking it as plod may well nick you until they can sort out what has happened. .

a buyer cannot obtain good title in something the seller did not have title to sell. There are probably procedural steps you can take in the admiralty court to 'seize' the boat. PM me and I can suggest a good shipping lawyer who will probably be able to help you for a fixed fee if you ask him nicely. It'll be worth a few hundred quid to do it properly if the boat has a significant value.

THIS POST DOES NOT CONSTITUTE PROFESSIONAL ADVICE AND YOU SHOULD SEEK INDEPENDANT LEGAL ADVICE FROM A SOLICITOR.

 

[golden14]

Many thanks for all the helpful replies and those who have PM'd me with advice and support, this man is now known to be a serial conman, but as most villans come back to the scene of their crime I guess right now he has been stood in a sailing bar with someone out there on this forum tonight, it's a trusting community and this is what he plays on. He has conned people for over £100k in Cowes alone in the past six months, so next time some overweight guy in a white and red sailing jacket (no offence meant to ANYONE - but if it triggers anyones memory about a larger than life guy with this description etc. Again no one please take offence just read my/our plight) gets talking to you in the bar claiming to be a property developer, get some info and PM. Then I'll send you the whole story, including going to the funeral of one person he ripped off, not that it would bother him though. Any help in stopping this man would be appreciated, he is out of control, and believes he is above the law.
Thanks for your ongoing support

 

[bastonjock]

best of luck golden14,i do however feel for the poor person that has parted with his cash for your boat,bet he thinks that hes got a bargain.I had trouble with a conman about 4 years ago,i smelled a rat the minute i saw him,my business partner did not,anyhow after he tried to con us out of a couple of hundred grand,my partner woke up and we contacted the FBI (the guy was a yank) it took a while but he was eventually arrested on a train in Europe,the yank had apparently conned a lot of people out of large sums,hes doing 10 years in an aids infested New York jail

 

[philip_stevens]

What's the latest??

 

[lenseman]

No idea!

I have been waiting a reply to my second PM to the loser as he gave me an incomplete mobile phone number. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[philip_stevens]

Hope all turns out well.

 

[reginaldon]

My car -a Hillman Imp broke down (big end) on the M6 near Stoke - many moons ago - my family and I carried on to Stockport I later returned with brother-in-law to collect car from garage for recon engine in M/cr - Garage open, no one around, we removed car, left a note, and drove and towed it away. some week or so later Police turned up at my door in Kent accusing me of theft - I explained situation, they recognised that I had taken myself out of the hands of Motorway ripoff merchants - paid the recovery charges, which were not in dispute and no further action was taken.