Boat selection for sailing around Britain

[Seajet]

Solent Joe,

whatever boat you get, please bear this in mind, I've done a bit of sailing, nothing remarkable but steady cross Channel, overnight to the West Country from Chichester and winter racing dinghy stuff.

I have formed the strong opinion that Fatigue Is The Enemy

Not storms, rocks or fog; Fatigue is the killer !

My old chum Charlie Solley ( veteran of aircraft carriers on the WWII Murmansk Convoys ) taught me, "tiredness and the cold will get you before anything else" ; - so take every labour saving device you can, ranging from ball bearing blocks on the reefing system to a 'tiller tamer' and a good autopilot - with a spare - plus a depthsounder with shallow & deep alarms for anchor watch.

Also I've just invested in a simple Roberts radio cassette from Force 4 ( no connection ), which can record the early morning forecast; seems very useful to me.

Though it may invoke outrage on the forums, Pot Noodles have their place too, if one can only boil a kettle; as do 'self heating meals', available through Amazon etc, I'd definitely have a few of those for emergencies.

 

[Solent Joe]

Solent Joe,

whatever boat you get, please bear this in mind, I've done a bit of sailing, nothing remarkable but steady cross Channel, overnight to the West Country from Chichester and winter racing dinghy stuff.

I have formed the strong opinion that Fatigue Is The Enemy

Not storms, rocks or fog; Fatigue is the killer !

My old chum Charlie Solley ( veteran of aircraft carriers on the WWII Murmansk Convoys ) taught me, "tiredness and the cold will get you before anything else" ; - so take every labour saving device you can, ranging from ball bearing blocks on the reefing system to a 'tiller tamer' and a good autopilot - with a spare - plus a depthsounder with shallow & deep alarms for anchor watch.

Also I've just invested in a simple Roberts radio cassette from Force 4 ( no connection ), which can record the early morning forecast; seems very useful to me.

Though it may invoke outrage on the forums, Pot Noodles have their place too, if one can only boil a kettle; as do 'self heating meals', available through Amazon etc, I'd definitely have a few of those for emergencies.

Thanks for that sound advice. I think it's also down to passage planning in the first place- I'll need to spend time on that to fit in the longer passages without over-exerting myself.
I don't think I'll be taking any pot noodles though! No nutritional value whatsoever!

Joe

 

[jonjo]

I don't think I'll be taking any pot noodles though! No nutritional value whatsoever!

You might find carbohydrates and energy useful at times at sea. A strapping young man like you can survive the occasional night without a teaspoon of evening primrose oil.

 

[jonjo]

I've read the blog, and to me there's not much difficultly being highlighted.

If you do not view sailing 60 singlehanded days in 90 as difficult then it is imperative that you get out there asap and clock up some ordinary coastal passages. For example leave Portsmouth at 4am after an short nights sleep to catch the tide, singlehand to Weymouth. Then as you collapse into your bunk after that first day and set your alarm for 3am the next morning imagine doing this 60 times. Those of us giving you the advice you do not want to hear are doing so because we want you to achieve something impressive rather than most likely fail trying to do something amazing.

Be vary of the encouragement you receive from others who want to live through your dream because they also have a small yacht and they believe that had life's dice rolled differently they would have done what you plan to do. The analogy here is parents living through their children.

This is how I predict your voyage will end up.

Due to limited funds and your already very busy lifestyle you will head off in a yacht that will throw multiple mechanical faults in the first month e.g. rudder, gooseneck, electrics, engine. You will spend money faster than expected trying to fix things in a hurry e.g. fitters working at 1.5 time weekend rates and mail order Co. dispatching stuff overnight for an extra £15.

En route in your first month you will discover what fatigue is, it cannot be communicated via blogs and books. Following 2 months of money worries, schedule frustrations and general accumulated tiredness you will arrive in Scotland way behind schedule. Then a string of summers lows will line up and whack the northern UK. Long trailing cold fronts with secondary depressions will keep you in harbour between the major systems.

You will be living a damp troglodyte type existence. One day you will be overwhelmed with despondency and will find a local backwater yard to haul you out until next season. Your career will develop down south and by mid autumn the £200 round trip up north to sort the boat out will never happen. You will put the boat on the market at original cost + fitout investment, say £7000.

After 6 months of storage bills, the yard owner who also runs a 2-bit brokerage operation will inform you that a couple of viewers backed out after 5 minutes because the interior of the boat has deteriorated so much during the damp cold Scottish winter.

In the Spring you will finally find time to get up north to sort the boat out and will find the mildew infested hell hole, you will dump all the soft furnishings in the yard skip and resolve to totally forget this sailling malarkey and drop the boat to £4000 after consulting with the yard owner.

Eventually your £7k investment sell for £3.5k. You will receive much less after the canny yard owner points out the small print about his minimum brokerage fee for small yachts and the +50% storage rate that kicks in at 6 months.

Finally a cheque for £2.5k will appear and you will try to eraze the whole sorry experience from memory.

 

[parbuckle]

If you do not view sailing 60 singlehanded days in 90 as difficult then it is imperative that you get out there asap and clock up some ordinary coastal passages. For example leave Portsmouth at 4am after an short nights sleep to catch the tide, singlehand to Weymouth. Then as you collapse into your bunk after that first day and set your alarm for 3am the next morning imagine doing this 60 times. Those of us giving you the advice you do not want to hear are doing so because we want you to achieve something impressive rather than most likely fail trying to do something amazing.

Be vary of the encouragement you receive from others who want to live through your dream because they also have a small yacht and they believe that had life's dice rolled differently they would have done what you plan to do. The analogy here is parents living through their children.

This is how I predict your voyage will end up.

Due to limited funds and your already very busy lifestyle you will head off in a yacht that will throw multiple mechanical faults in the first month e.g. rudder, gooseneck, electrics, engine. You will spend money faster than expected trying to fix things in a hurry e.g. fitters working at 1.5 time weekend rates and mail order Co. dispatching stuff overnight for an extra £15.

En route in your first month you will discover what fatigue is, it cannot be communicated via blogs and books. Following 2 months of money worries, schedule frustrations and general accumulated tiredness you will arrive in Scotland way behind schedule. Then a string of summers lows will line up and whack the northern UK. Long trailing cold fronts with secondary depressions will keep you in harbour between the major systems.

You will be living a damp troglodyte type existence. One day you will be overwhelmed with despondency and will find a local backwater yard to haul you out until next season. Your career will develop down south and by mid autumn the £200 round trip up north to sort the boat out will never happen. You will put the boat on the market at original cost + fitout investment, say £7000.

After 6 months of storage bills, the yard owner who also runs a 2-bit brokerage operation will inform you that a couple of viewers backed out after 5 minutes because the interior of the boat has deteriorated so much during the damp cold Scottish winter.

In the Spring you will finally find time to get up north to sort the boat out and will find the mildew infested hell hole, you will dump all the soft furnishings in the yard skip and resolve to totally forget this sailling malarkey and drop the boat to £4000 after consulting with the yard owner.

Eventually your £7k investment sell for £3.5k. You will receive much less after the canny yard owner points out the small print about his minimum brokerage fee for small yachts and the +50% storage rate that kicks in at 6 months.

Finally a cheque for £2.5k will appear and you will try to eraze the whole sorry experience from memory.

On the other hand ....

 

[Tommyrot]

If you do not view sailing 60 singlehanded days in 90 as difficult then it is imperative that you get out there asap and clock up some ordinary coastal passages. For example leave Portsmouth at 4am after an short nights sleep to catch the tide, singlehand to Weymouth. Then as you collapse into your bunk after that first day and set your alarm for 3am the next morning imagine doing this 60 times. Those of us giving you the advice you do not want to hear are doing so because we want you to achieve something impressive rather than most likely fail trying to do something amazing.

Be vary of the encouragement you receive from others who want to live through your dream because they also have a small yacht and they believe that had life's dice rolled differently they would have done what you plan to do. The analogy here is parents living through their children.

This is how I predict your voyage will end up.

Due to limited funds and your already very busy lifestyle you will head off in a yacht that will throw multiple mechanical faults in the first month e.g. rudder, gooseneck, electrics, engine. You will spend money faster than expected trying to fix things in a hurry e.g. fitters working at 1.5 time weekend rates and mail order Co. dispatching stuff overnight for an extra £15.

En route in your first month you will discover what fatigue is, it cannot be communicated via blogs and books. Following 2 months of money worries, schedule frustrations and general accumulated tiredness you will arrive in Scotland way behind schedule. Then a string of summers lows will line up and whack the northern UK. Long trailing cold fronts with secondary depressions will keep you in harbour between the major systems.

You will be living a damp troglodyte type existence. One day you will be overwhelmed with despondency and will find a local backwater yard to haul you out until next season. Your career will develop down south and by mid autumn the £200 round trip up north to sort the boat out will never happen. You will put the boat on the market at original cost + fitout investment, say £7000.

After 6 months of storage bills, the yard owner who also runs a 2-bit brokerage operation will inform you that a couple of viewers backed out after 5 minutes because the interior of the boat has deteriorated so much during the damp cold Scottish winter.

In the Spring you will finally find time to get up north to sort the boat out and will find the mildew infested hell hole, you will dump all the soft furnishings in the yard skip and resolve to totally forget this sailling malarkey and drop the boat to £4000 after consulting with the yard owner.

Eventually your £7k investment sell for £3.5k. You will receive much less after the canny yard owner points out the small print about his minimum brokerage fee for small yachts and the +50% storage rate that kicks in at 6 months.

Finally a cheque for £2.5k will appear and you will try to eraze the whole sorry experience from memory.

But Joe said...

I'm looking to sail single-handed around Britain via Cape Wrath in the next couple of years

There's going to be plenty of time to get some long passages in and to sort out the boat.

If he was heading out next week you might have had a point.

 

[Chrusty 1]

But Joe said...




There's going to be plenty of time to get some long passages in and to sort out the boat.

If he was heading out next week you might have had a point.

I dunno, Mr Jonjo just seems intent on dampening any enthusiasm that Joe might have for his project, It's one thing to advise caution, but Jonjo's posts come across as something else entirely, I particularly resent his comment about parents living their dreams etc. Mr. Jonjo, you know nothing about me, or my sailing experience, and I dare say not much about Seajet or anybody else that has encouraged Joe to get out there and give it a go. I think if a young lassie like Katie Miller can get the job done, Joe is at least in with a chance. I think you are trying to transfer your fears to where they have no business being.

Why don't you just wind your neck in and let Joe be.

 

[aslabend]

........
Finally a cheque for £2.5k will appear and you will try to eraze the whole sorry experience from memory.

Cripes! That's not just pessimistic that positively apocalyptic!

It's a challenge yes, but it's a challenge worth taking on.

 

[Chrusty 1]

Cripes! That's not just pessimistic that positively apocalyptic!

It's a challenge yes, but it's a challenge worth taking on.

I just had a quick squint at your Nic26, very pretty!

 

[Tranona]

I dunno, Mr Jonjo just seems intent on dampening any enthusiasm that Joe might have for his project, It's one thing to advise caution, but Jonjo's posts come across as something else entirely, I particularly resent his comment about parents living their dreams etc. Mr. Jonjo, you know nothing about me, or my sailing experience, and I dare say not much about Seajet or anybody else that has encouraged Joe to get out there and give it a go. I think if a young lassie like Katie Miller can get the job done, Joe is at least in with a chance. I think you are trying to transfer your fears to where they have no business being.

Why don't you just wind your neck in and let Joe be.

You can point up the "successes" - but there are more "failures" that you never hear about.

The way Joe describes himself is all gung ho - which of course is not bad. However, the best prepared and most successful are those that are aware of the downside. The message, I think, is that there is no room for error - no slack in the timescale, little contingency in the budget and maybe a reluctance to accept that there are external factors, particularly weather that are outside one's control.

There is lots of evidence that single problems are relatively easy to deal with, but when you have a number they get out of control and there comes a point where one has to either accept defeat or scale back your ambitions. It is called realism.

Just as an example. Two years ago I set off from Corfu to sail my boat back to UK on a fairly tight timescale, but with some slack. Did all the preparation a professional skipper and strong crew, both with far more experience than me and a boat more than capable for the voyage. All agreed pretty straightforward. Second day new autopilot failed. Constant motorsailing to windward. Stopped in Sardinia for rest and purchased and fitted new autopilot. Lost 3 days. More motorsailing to Majorca. New autopilot failed, sails needed repairs. Motored to Spanish mainland. 3 days to discover that no part available to repair autopilot. 5 days to get a new one from UK. So already another week lost, never mind the fatigue from constant steering and uncomfortable weather. And this was the "easy" bit compared with going out into the Atlantic. So rather than have the boat stuck in Spain whistled up a truck to bring it home.

My reason for saying all this is just to show that even when you plan for everything you think you can control, you can be hit by things you can't, and it is difficult to have a contingency for such events. And Jonjo's description is probably nearer the truth than one would like to admit. Of course individual people have varying capacity to deal with adversity, but it is adversity that is mostly out of your control.

 

[Chrusty 1]

You can point up the "successes" - but there are more "failures" that you never hear about.

The way Joe describes himself is all gung ho - which of course is not bad. However, the best prepared and most successful are those that are aware of the downside. The message, I think, is that there is no room for error - no slack in the timescale, little contingency in the budget and maybe a reluctance to accept that there are external factors, particularly weather that are outside one's control.

There is lots of evidence that single problems are relatively easy to deal with, but when you have a number they get out of control and there comes a point where one has to either accept defeat or scale back your ambitions. It is called realism.

Just as an example. Two years ago I set off from Corfu to sail my boat back to UK on a fairly tight timescale, but with some slack. Did all the preparation a professional skipper and strong crew, both with far more experience than me and a boat more than capable for the voyage. All agreed pretty straightforward. Second day new autopilot failed. Constant motorsailing to windward. Stopped in Sardinia for rest and purchased and fitted new autopilot. Lost 3 days. More motorsailing to Majorca. New autopilot failed, sails needed repairs. Motored to Spanish mainland. 3 days to discover that no part available to repair autopilot. 5 days to get a new one from UK. So already another week lost, never mind the fatigue from constant steering and uncomfortable weather. And this was the "easy" bit compared with going out into the Atlantic. So rather than have the boat stuck in Spain whistled up a truck to bring it home.

My reason for saying all this is just to show that even when you plan for everything you think you can control, you can be hit by things you can't, and it is difficult to have a contingency for such events. And Jonjo's description is probably nearer the truth than one would like to admit. Of course individual people have varying capacity to deal with adversity, but it is adversity that is mostly out of your control.

Well firstly, if you never hear of the failures, how do you know that they failed?

Gungho??? Hardly, he is talking about going off in a couple of years, plenty of time for planning and sorting the boat out.

I would also point out that Steve Munday managed to do the trip without caving in at the first obstacle that stepped into his path, and he didn't arrive home a jibbering wreck. I might also point out that he is a lot older than Joe too.

You know, it's a good job that youngsters that want to get out there and give things a go, don't listen too much to the likes of you and Jonjo, because if they did, they would never do anything. As it is, I am glad that he seems willing to follow his dream / ambition, regardless of the naysayers on here.

 

[Tommyrot]

You can point up the "successes" - but there are more "failures" that you never hear about.

The way Joe describes himself is all gung ho - which of course is not bad. However, the best prepared and most successful are those that are aware of the downside. The message, I think, is that there is no room for error - no slack in the timescale, little contingency in the budget and maybe a reluctance to accept that there are external factors, particularly weather that are outside one's control.

There is lots of evidence that single problems are relatively easy to deal with, but when you have a number they get out of control and there comes a point where one has to either accept defeat or scale back your ambitions. It is called realism.

Just as an example. Two years ago I set off from Corfu to sail my boat back to UK on a fairly tight timescale, but with some slack. Did all the preparation a professional skipper and strong crew, both with far more experience than me and a boat more than capable for the voyage. All agreed pretty straightforward. Second day new autopilot failed. Constant motorsailing to windward. Stopped in Sardinia for rest and purchased and fitted new autopilot. Lost 3 days. More motorsailing to Majorca. New autopilot failed, sails needed repairs. Motored to Spanish mainland. 3 days to discover that no part available to repair autopilot. 5 days to get a new one from UK. So already another week lost, never mind the fatigue from constant steering and uncomfortable weather. And this was the "easy" bit compared with going out into the Atlantic. So rather than have the boat stuck in Spain whistled up a truck to bring it home.

My reason for saying all this is just to show that even when you plan for everything you think you can control, you can be hit by things you can't, and it is difficult to have a contingency for such events. And Jonjo's description is probably nearer the truth than one would like to admit. Of course individual people have varying capacity to deal with adversity, but it is adversity that is mostly out of your control.

Maybe buying a book on "Sheet to tiller" steering would have been better value than a few electronic autopilots...

 

[Seajet]

Well firstly, if you never hear of the failures, how do you know that they failed?

Gungho??? Hardly, he is talking about going off in a couple of years, plenty of time for planning and sorting the boat out.

I would also point out that Steve Munday managed to do the trip without caving in at the first obstacle that stepped into his path, and he didn't arrive home a jibbering wreck. I might also point out that he is a lot older than Joe too.

You know, it's a good job that youngsters that want to get out there and give things a go, don't listen too much to the likes of you and Jonjo, because if they did, they would never do anything. As it is, I am glad that he seems willing to follow his dream / ambition, regardless of the naysayers on here.

Chrusty1,

I don't think anyone here is saying 'don't do it', just trying to inject a degree of realism.

I remember my old Decca navigator saying ' at this rate you'll be there in an hour' whenever the speed went up momentarily, but it wasn't correct !

On simple low key sailing holidays I've for instance had to stay in St Peter Port for a week due to fog, more than once.

I do think fatigue is the real enemy to sailing around Britain from port to port, constant coastal navigation in tidal waters is a lot harder than crossing the Atlantic in my book !

 

[Tranona]

Maybe buying a book on "Sheet to tiller" steering would have been better value than a few electronic autopilots...

Fine if you have wind in both quantity and from a direction that makes it possible to make progress in the direction you need to go. No good if the forecast for the coming week is telling you that you will experience the exact opposite.

The whole point is that if you set time constraints based on a particular level of progress and you cannot keep within it (and your contingency) for whatever reason, your project is doomed to failure. If you have no time constraints then lots of alternatives are possible.

So, the OP is setting himself a target that is only achievable if nothing goes wrong, and those of us who have been through this kind of thing (not just in sailing) are simply pointing out that if things start to go wrong they soon get out of control and there is a limit to what enthusiasm can do, and at some point you may have to accept that your original goal is unachievable.

So, you can either set yourself a more modest goal or recognise the possible consequences of failure. Jonjo's description of a broken boat 500 miles away that nobody wants to buy and you can't afford the time or the money to bring it back is one possible outcome.

 

[Tommyrot]

Fine if you have wind in both quantity and from a direction that makes it possible to make progress in the direction you need to go. No good if the forecast for the coming week is telling you that you will experience the exact opposite.

The whole point is that if you set time constraints based on a particular level of progress and you cannot keep within it (and your contingency) for whatever reason, your project is doomed to failure. If you have no time constraints then lots of alternatives are possible.

So, the OP is setting himself a target that is only achievable if nothing goes wrong, and those of us who have been through this kind of thing (not just in sailing) are simply pointing out that if things start to go wrong they soon get out of control and there is a limit to what enthusiasm can do, and at some point you may have to accept that your original goal is unachievable.

So, you can either set yourself a more modest goal or recognise the possible consequences of failure. Jonjo's description of a broken boat 500 miles away that nobody wants to buy and you can't afford the time or the money to bring it back is one possible outcome.

If there's a chance of failing, set your targets lower!

Thank goodness there are still a few out there ready to push themselves a bit.
If there were no chance of failing, he probably wouldn't be bothering.
It's the challenge.

Your example didn't mention wind from the wrong direction/too windy/not enough wind (Which I thought was pretty much expected sailing anywhere ), but a tale of broken electronics and fatigue from steering.
A bit of string and rubber could have easily steered the boat.

 

[jonjo]

You know, it's a good job that youngsters that want to get out there and give things a go, don't listen too much to the likes of you and Jonjo, because if they did, they would never do anything. As it is, I am glad that he seems willing to follow his dream / ambition, regardless of the naysayers on here.

I note you are now reverting to standard political soapbox debating techniques so often demonstrated in the YBW Lounge by yourself. It must be a quiet day for political controversy in the other place, did you get bored howling at the moon in the Lounge Chrusty?

Back to Joe' quest... I want him to go sailing asap and clock up his own experience, then he will no longer be dependent on internet forum opinion. The danger is that he will become fixated on his one dream, buy a boat that is too large and then he will become boatyard bound trying to bring his yacht up to standard. While in the boatyard the usual gaggle of cranks who never go sailing because they are always fixing up their boat, will latch onto him and fill his mind with imagined demons that need to be addressed with a growing list of enhancements.

Joe buy a Hurley 22 or Archillies 24 or similar but nothing bigger, then just go sailing and then do more sailing. Once at sea you can identify the good and bad advice for yourself. After you have pushed your single handed sailing envelope to the point you can overnight from Gosport to Dartmouth with ease you will then be ready to make your own plan for the UK circumnavigation.

 

[Seajet]

A bit of string and rubber could have easily steered the boat.

Not in waters necessarily close to shore when unlike say a Transat, the boat wandering off by just a few degrees while the skipper tries to rest - or simply falls asleep - would spell disaster.

I suggest this is why I and others have more or less automatically assumed an electronic autopilot ( with spares ) will be required.

I'm all for the OP doing the trip, just trying to emphasize the dangers of fatigue especially with a tight schedule - in my experience the words 'sailing' and 'schedule' make a dangerous mix !

As in most ventures forward planning to minimise problems is the key; any labour saving device be it for boat/ sail handling or navigation will be worthwhile.

 

[Tommyrot]

Not in waters necessarily close to shore when unlike say a Transat, the boat wandering off by just a few degrees while the skipper tries to rest - or simply falls asleep - would spell disaster.

I suggest this is why I and others have more or less automatically assumed an electronic autopilot ( with spares ) will be required.

I'm all for the OP doing the trip, just trying to emphasize the dangers of fatigue especially with a tight schedule - in my experience the words 'sailing' and 'schedule' make a dangerous mix !

As in most ventures forward planning to minimise problems is the key; any labour saving device be it for boat/ sail handling or navigation will be worthwhile.

I wasn't advocating Joe sets out to circumnavigate with a bit of string and rubber, just that Tranona could have had a much easier time of things had he been able to fall back on traditional methods.

I'm going to leave you all to it and bugger off back to the shed and build a bit more of my windvane steering.

...but I've also got an electronic tillerpilot.

...and some string and rubber.

 

[Tommyrot]

Joe buy a Hurley 22 or Archillies 24 or similar but nothing bigger, then just go sailing and then do more sailing. Once at sea you can identify the good and bad advice for yourself. After you have pushed your single handed sailing envelope to the point you can overnight from Gosport to Dartmouth with ease you will then be ready to make your own plan for the UK circumnavigation.

That's the best advice I've seen for a while.

 

[Chrusty 1]

That's the best advice I've seen for a while.

Yes it is, don't know where he got the idea that I was advocating Joe buying a bigger boat? I certainly never said so, but twisting what one says is a standard tactic on these forums aint it.

I think I am giving this a knock on the head as well, I think Joe is quite capable of sorting out what's what.

To you nay sayers, I have been sailing single handed most of me life, by the way, that is about 50 years experience, I don't know it all by a long shot, and if the day ever comes when I stop learning, I will give it up. I am well used to the pitfalls and going without sleep is just what you do, getting into a routine of catnapping, is something else you just do. Coastal sailing is not particularly difficult if you give yourself room.

But hey, Jonjo and Tranona keep chuntering away, I am sure if you keep at it for long enough you might wear Joe down................Not.