Whopper
Well-Known Member
I used to get on grand with my old rib trimming the engine with my little finger! 
Boat in build pics (2013 Fairline Squadron 78)
- Thread starter jfm
- Start date
MapisM
Well-Known Member
Yep, I see what you mean.
But I'm afraid there isn't any conversion kit for OEM throttles, because the handle of the Yam lever (as also Merc or VP, for that matter) isn't symmetrical.
The good old Teleflex lever had a symmetrical handle, which allowed the trim button to be moved either side, if you can live with the "vintage" look.
Mind, the one in the webpage I just linked has no trim button at all (I picked the first one which I googled), but you can see what I mean re. the reversible position of the button.
A much cooler alternative would be a Livorsi flush mount lever, placed on the console panel. That way, you could also fit a separate gear/throttle lever, which is just the ticket for quick release/acceleration when jumping waves!
That would require a bit more adaptation work of course, but still not a lot when seen in the perspective of a highly customised boat as M2...
MapisM
Well-Known Member
Yeah, of course you can.I used to get on grand with my old rib trimming the engine with my little finger!
But here we're talking of a boat with Bisazza mosaic tiles in the bathroom, if you get my drift...
coliholic
Well-Known Member
Excellent thread JFM, thanks for taking the time to do it.
Can't make any sensible suggestions re your stunningly fab boat so here's a sideways one that I don't think's been discussed, but if I'm wrong just give me a post no to go to.
Water maker.
Notice from earlier threads that you say you're not overly concerned with reducing water storage from 1,000 to 800litres and can understand that. There's near enough a tonne of water in store which takes a bit of power to lug round the Med, but you then go on to say your watermaker can produce 280 litres an hour. Or is it day? Anyway never mind that it's not overly relevant to my question.
Now presumably you have to monitor in some way, the quality of the raw water feeding into the water maker? Presumably it's a reverse osmosis process so if I understand that corrrectly you need to be mindful of the bacterial state of your raw water input? I guess you can't run it in a marina for instance or where the water quality is poor/questionable, so how do you do that? Just look over the side and say "yep that looks OK, switch it on"? Or is there another high tech solution? Knowing you it'll be the latter, so how's it done?
Perhaps you turn your u/w lights on and check the inlet at night? If you can see the bottom it's OK to run the w/m, if it's too murky and claggy, wait till you're somewhere else?
And do you then test the sweet water that comes out of it for pathogens/quality or is this water just for washing and drinking water comes from Perrier or Evian etc?
Or don't you drink water? Don't think i fancy brushing my teeth in Moet.
Can't make any sensible suggestions re your stunningly fab boat so here's a sideways one that I don't think's been discussed, but if I'm wrong just give me a post no to go to.
Water maker.
Notice from earlier threads that you say you're not overly concerned with reducing water storage from 1,000 to 800litres and can understand that. There's near enough a tonne of water in store which takes a bit of power to lug round the Med, but you then go on to say your watermaker can produce 280 litres an hour. Or is it day? Anyway never mind that it's not overly relevant to my question.
Now presumably you have to monitor in some way, the quality of the raw water feeding into the water maker? Presumably it's a reverse osmosis process so if I understand that corrrectly you need to be mindful of the bacterial state of your raw water input? I guess you can't run it in a marina for instance or where the water quality is poor/questionable, so how do you do that? Just look over the side and say "yep that looks OK, switch it on"? Or is there another high tech solution? Knowing you it'll be the latter, so how's it done?
Perhaps you turn your u/w lights on and check the inlet at night? If you can see the bottom it's OK to run the w/m, if it's too murky and claggy, wait till you're somewhere else?
And do you then test the sweet water that comes out of it for pathogens/quality or is this water just for washing and drinking water comes from Perrier or Evian etc?
Or don't you drink water? Don't think i fancy brushing my teeth in Moet.
Erik C
Well-Known Member
I believe the holes in the filter of the water maker are to small for bacteria to get through.
vas
Well-Known Member
correct, BUT bacteria thrive in a clean environment with no chlorine or the other chemicals that water co dumps into our tap water. There lies the problem.
Apparently a tablet of water purifier or whatever that's called every now and again is enough to keep the tank clean.
V.
rwoofer
Well-Known Member
Good point as most people who use watermakers use them on transocean voyages where you can pretty much guarantee clean water. My understanding is that you need to use them fairly regularly (or go through some kind of pickling process), which might mean special trips out to clean water if you are doing short harbours hops.
As you say JFM probably has some hi-tech solution to this.
Cardo
Well-Known Member
Many smart watermakers have self flushing mechanisms that flush themselves out with fresh water on a regular basis to stop bacteria from thriving. This is only necessary if the watermaker isn't being used regularly, but avoids the need to pickle them if not using for a week or two.
jfm
Well-Known Member
Hi Col
It's 280 litres/hour - 2x the standard Sq78 fit and Match 1's machine. My logic is I want to run genset for as few hours as possible, but I know it will be on for say 1.5 hours for lunch and dishwasher each day even in shoulder season when there isn't need for afternoon airco. Now once even a single genset is running I have bags of capacity (90 amps at 230v) so I can run everything - the cooking doesn't use up the power. So I run the washing machines and top up the water. 350-400 litres is a nice top up, and the 280litre rate will give me that. With "only" 140l/h I found myself on match1 needing an extra hour of genset just to get the water i needed. Putting this in context the upgrade cost from 140 to 280 was about £2grand on a £10 grand set up so kinda worth it
On hygiene, you are right, the best thing to start with is clean water, so I never run it in the dock or if I thought something was wrong with the water. I have specced every possible level of filtration. There are oil separators, plankton filters and other particulate filters. That's as far as folks usually go but as erik said bacteria can get thru filters and so the ultimate is to fit a thing where the fresh water you have made passes down a glass pipe and gets fried with strong UV. This kills the bacteria. This is only needed if you have high risk and I would never run it in marina or by waste outlet so I didn't spec the UV. I also have a carbon filter downstream to make the fresh water taste nice. Finally there is an electronic thing that measures water quality and gives an LED readout on a 1-10 scale, but i think that is mostly measuring salinity not bacteria. If the quality measurer is not happy the solenoid vlaves dump the water over the side and not into the tank
A crucial thing to remember is not to empty back tanks when the watermaker is running co the seacocks aint more than 78 feet apart. On match1, I had a JFM-installed interlock whereby if watermaker is running the DC power to the electric black tank seacocks and discharge pumps was interupted by a relay, hence curing this potential erm "circularity", shall we call it. I'll do same on Match2. This is JFM post delivery stuff because I dont want to clog Fairline's list with stuff I can easily do
As cardo said there is auto backflush on a weekly timer built into the unit. This back flushes the seawater side of the RO membrane using water from the boat's freshwater tank. I leave this running all the time even in winter when the boat might not get used for a month, and with this system the manufacturer doesn't recommend any pickling. i also specified a VFD for the motor that pressurises the RO membrane, so it can soft start and not "shock" the membranes with a high speed start
I don't drink the stuff, but I do brush teeth with it. I prefer to drink bottled water though i suspect the tank water is actually ok. i make sure to use the freshwater tanks 90% every day so the water in there is always fresh whether it is street water or w/maker water
Detials here - mine is the bottom one 1800-2, and detials of the add-ons are here.
It's 280 litres/hour - 2x the standard Sq78 fit and Match 1's machine. My logic is I want to run genset for as few hours as possible, but I know it will be on for say 1.5 hours for lunch and dishwasher each day even in shoulder season when there isn't need for afternoon airco. Now once even a single genset is running I have bags of capacity (90 amps at 230v) so I can run everything - the cooking doesn't use up the power. So I run the washing machines and top up the water. 350-400 litres is a nice top up, and the 280litre rate will give me that. With "only" 140l/h I found myself on match1 needing an extra hour of genset just to get the water i needed. Putting this in context the upgrade cost from 140 to 280 was about £2grand on a £10 grand set up so kinda worth it
On hygiene, you are right, the best thing to start with is clean water, so I never run it in the dock or if I thought something was wrong with the water. I have specced every possible level of filtration. There are oil separators, plankton filters and other particulate filters. That's as far as folks usually go but as erik said bacteria can get thru filters and so the ultimate is to fit a thing where the fresh water you have made passes down a glass pipe and gets fried with strong UV. This kills the bacteria. This is only needed if you have high risk and I would never run it in marina or by waste outlet so I didn't spec the UV. I also have a carbon filter downstream to make the fresh water taste nice. Finally there is an electronic thing that measures water quality and gives an LED readout on a 1-10 scale, but i think that is mostly measuring salinity not bacteria. If the quality measurer is not happy the solenoid vlaves dump the water over the side and not into the tank
A crucial thing to remember is not to empty back tanks when the watermaker is running co the seacocks aint more than 78 feet apart. On match1, I had a JFM-installed interlock whereby if watermaker is running the DC power to the electric black tank seacocks and discharge pumps was interupted by a relay, hence curing this potential erm "circularity", shall we call it. I'll do same on Match2. This is JFM post delivery stuff because I dont want to clog Fairline's list with stuff I can easily do
As cardo said there is auto backflush on a weekly timer built into the unit. This back flushes the seawater side of the RO membrane using water from the boat's freshwater tank. I leave this running all the time even in winter when the boat might not get used for a month, and with this system the manufacturer doesn't recommend any pickling. i also specified a VFD for the motor that pressurises the RO membrane, so it can soft start and not "shock" the membranes with a high speed start
I don't drink the stuff, but I do brush teeth with it. I prefer to drink bottled water though i suspect the tank water is actually ok. i make sure to use the freshwater tanks 90% every day so the water in there is always fresh whether it is street water or w/maker water
Detials here - mine is the bottom one 1800-2, and detials of the add-ons are here.
prv
Well-Known Member
Can bacteria really get through a membrane with pores so small that it catches sodium and chlorine atoms? Or have I misunderstood how RO membranes work and they're not just an unimaginably fine sieve?
Pete
jfm
Well-Known Member
You're correct that they can be thought of as uber fine sieves where the holes are sort of sub molecule sized, through which bacteria and other micro organisms would be much too big to pass. That isn't a scientifically perfect because the proces is diffusion rather than mechanical sieving but it's a perfeclty ok analogy. Anyway, the problem is that the membranes cannot be made and maintained with total perfection. They have imperfections from manufacture, and "scratches" from particles that manage to get past the particulate filters, in the form of the odd hole in the membrane which IS big enough for nasties to get through. In addition there are mechanical seals where the membrane attaches to the hardware and these of course will have imperfections big enough for bacteria to pass through.
All these factors are worse in an older unit than a newish one, and if the water is drunk soon after being made (which is my circumstnace) the microbe concentration is tiny but if the critters are given a week in warm water tank to multiply then it might get worse
Portofino
Well-Known Member
--and microorganisms ( correct term for bacteria ,spores, viruses) can find a contamination route from the out put pipes - eg shower header, taps , etc anything where the " tank" empties .
Yeh I know its flowing in one direction ( you hope?) and is protecteted by valves
Maybe air gaps.?
But as JFm says warm temps + h2o = breading season)
Liegionella - classic example .ideal proliferation temp 37-40 C .Thats our body temp .Cold needs to be below20 C and hot above 60 c to be Free from this one ,
You will inhale it through your lungs - droplets in the water - eg shower worse still close cooled air con units
Dead ends too are your main threat - ie stagnant water in infrequent used outlets -microorganisms will have field day .does this sound familiar in the boaty world?
vas
Well-Known Member
+1
hence simple RO home potable water systems with a sealed 15lt tank state that if you don't use the system for more than a few days, you should flush it and start again!
And that's on a system that has the filters+RO+tank and just one tap...
cheers
V.
D
Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
Yup that could be a bummer
vas
Well-Known Member
Yup that could be a bummer
or even not in a crowded anchorage altogether. I'd expect that it would be convenient to do when the boat is on the move as you'd even manage to recycle some of the exhaust deposits and crud from the genny when stationary??
V
prv
Well-Known Member
Thanks - the mechanism for a few microbes getting through makes perfect sense.
Even if the membrane was perfect, though, the tank isn't going to be sterile. It's going to have something living in it - practically every surface on earth does. So the idea of applying UV to the product water on the way to the tank, to kill the last few bugs that got through, doesn't stack up for me when it's about to go into a tank with far more already living in it.
Perhaps the point is that the species that normally colonise water tanks aren't too bad, but you don't want to pump in even a few spores of some of the things you might pick up from the sea.
On Stavros we only ran the RO plant mid-ocean.
Pete
jfm
Well-Known Member
Yup. I haven't thought about this as hard as you're now making me think about it
. I'm no epxert here but many folks have advised me that in my recreational application the UV gizmo is pointless (so long as i dont do something daft like run it while dumping the black tanks). What you say accords with that - even if some bugs get thru imperfections in the membrane and seals, so what, becuase their concentration will be no higher than is already in the tank. Hence the UV si pointless. Provided you don't pick up some all-new uber killer species fromt he seawater. But hey, we swim in that seawater and it splashes all over the boat and tender so can't be that toxicYou're making me comfortable with the decision not to bother with UV
BTW, when the unit on Match1 was commissioned in Antibes by the w/maker's rep, he ran it in the port. He was quite a serious RO expert and spent his life designing/commissioning gear. He wasn't a boater - hated the things, but had spent his life with RO gear. I said "you can't run it in the port" knowing how dirty the port water is. He said to me, with this level of kit and the filter I had I could run it in the port quite happily and he proceeded to do so to commission the thing, and no-one got ill. He said the membrane quality and seal quality in a new unit like the one I had meant the number of harmful micro organisms that get thru the gaps was way too small to worry about even if the source water was pretty grim. I still don't run it in port cos it doesn't feel good, and it clogs the fliters faster obviously
Overall then I'm pretty happy with it all. For the user, if you have soft start VFD, use autobackflush and spin on a couple of new fliters every 6 weeks or so, it is pretty much plug and play. If you have a freezer full of food and a big anchor you can be pretty much self sufficient and not visit port for several days or longer (hurrah!). Funnily enough the thing that makes me HAVE to visit port is dumping trash.
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Groot T
Well-Known Member
Really shouldn't talk about your crew like that, JFM..
prv
Well-Known Member
Heh, yes.
On Stavros, garbage handling is the domain of the deckies, a role I've sailed in a couple of times. There's a walk-in garbage locker about five foot by eight foot, which will take a fair few sacks (though we also store the petrol for the RIBs, pressure washer, and a few other odds and sods in there, and quite often deckies' harnesses as well). On an ocean passage we would only need to stow plastic in the garbage locker, as everything else could be dumped overboard (a lovely job with the galley and messroom bins
) but I believe this changed recently to require a lot more types of waste to be kept on board. Obviously for coastal work everything had to be held and discharged ashore, and I assume this applies to the whole of the Med.Pete
benjenbav
Well-Known Member
On water consumption, just curious as to what you'd expect to use for a lunch stop. I'm guessing 200-250 litres with say 6 or so people on board based on 50-60 (Miele spec) to wash the linen plus same again for dishwasher and basins combined, same again-ish for lavatory flushing, and again for deck showers.
So, on a 90 minute run of the watermaker you would get back to the status quo ante so far as your water tanks are concerned allowing for a nice quiet couple of hours of contemplation and pleasure with the genset off.
Or am I miles out?
So, on a 90 minute run of the watermaker you would get back to the status quo ante so far as your water tanks are concerned allowing for a nice quiet couple of hours of contemplation and pleasure with the genset off.
Or am I miles out?
