Boat in build pics (2013 Fairline Squadron 78)

MapisM said:
Are you sure to be able to select from which tank each engine (either mains or gensets) draws fuel, and to which tank return it, all independently?
That's how M2 system works, if I understood correctly what jfm said.
And I'm pretty sure to have seen a 72' Ferretti where this wasn't possible, and it didn't have a fuel transfer pump either!
Then again, it wasn't a very recent boat.
Click to expand...

To be properly precise MapisM, I cannot return fuel to the centre tank. I can only return it to either of the two main tanks. I can draw from any tanks including the small centre tank. I and Fairline didn't see the point of the extra pipes and fittings to enable return to the small centre tank
 
Hi JFM. I'd be interested to know if you have access panels in the tanks for when eventually they need cleaning. I ask because our Fleming doesn't, and I'm planning to have them installed. A huge job since access to the top isn't possible, and going in sideways meets with the baffles. Hmmm.
 
Sorry to ask so many questions, but something is bugging me. I recall (perhaps incorrectly) that you said you could get over 1,000nm range with the extra fuel tank. Using figures you mentioned for Match 1 of 16lpm at 20kts, with 7,400L you can only get 462.5nm.

Presumably, at a sedate 10kts, you would get better fuel consumption, but I have no experience with planing boats and lower speeds vs better fuel efficiency to have any chance of working it out.

What would be a best speed for maximum range, and what range?

Thanks
 
jfm said:
So Ferrettis spill/leak fuel to their bilges, then pump it overboard using a pump especially made for the job? Niiiice!
Click to expand...
:D:D Actually the discharge pipe is loose so you could even pump that leaked fuel into the bilges of the Fairline next door
 
MapisM said:
Are you sure to be able to select from which tank each engine (either mains or gensets) draws fuel, and to which tank return it, all independently?
That's how M2 system works, if I understood correctly what jfm said.
And I'm pretty sure to have seen a 72' Ferretti where this wasn't possible, and it didn't have a fuel transfer pump either!
Then again, it wasn't a very recent boat.
Click to expand...
Well actually you're half right. The F53 has a slightly odd fuel tank arrangement, the logic of which I've never quite understood. There are 3 tanks, 2 main ones forward of the engines and the 3rd tank aft of the engines. You cannot draw or return fuel direct to/from the engines using the 3rd tank only so the 3rd tank is a reserve only. The 2 forward tanks are split asymettrically so the port tank is larger than the starboard. In normal mode both engines and the gennie draw fuel from the larger port tank (being asymetteric it is lower); the port engine returns fuel to the port tank but the starboard engine returns fuel to the starboard tank. However there is an option to draw fuel for the starboard engine from the starboard tank. So I think the logic is that if there is any issue with the port tank, you can get home on the starboard engine only using the starboard tank only. Vice versa, if there is any issue with the starboard tank, you can get home on the port engine and port tank only. I hope you're understanding this! So there is a degree of independence between tanks and engines but you can't run both engines from just one tank
In practice I leave the transfer pipes between all 3 tanks open, draw fuel for both engines and gennie in the normal way from the port tank and leave the feed from the starboard tank to the starboard engine closed. I do wonder whether its correct to leave the transfer pipe open to the 3rd tank because it is well aft of the other 2 tanks and therefore, if the boat is on the plane at an angle, the filler for the 3rd tank is lower than the filler for the other 2 tanks and therefore fuel could be sloshing back up the filler pipe for the 3rd tank and leaking past the cap but in practice I've never seen this.
I never said fuel transfer pump, I said fuel bilge pump. Its a pump for dealing with fuel spillages only with a loose hose attached to it so you can pump any fuel in the bilges into a container rather than allowing the main bilge pumps to pump the fuel overboard. I guess it could be useful if you have a tank or pipe leak or you're a bit hamfisted when changing one of the Racor filters and allow fuel to spill into the bilge. I know that in some Med ports they are very hot on fuel spills overboard
 
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jfm said:
I and Fairline didn't see the point of the extra pipes and fittings to enable return to the small centre tank
Click to expand...
Yep, I can see why.
I'd guess that you have gravity hoses connecting the bulkhead tanks to the centre tank, which means that you can keep it full (or at least level with the others, when their level is below the top of the centre tank), with no need for a return pipe.
Or am I mistaken?
 
jfm said:
Funniest thing about Ferretti plumbing though is that (iirc) they discharge the black tank ABOVE the waterline.
Click to expand...
LOL, do they? I never noticed... :)
Mind, not that the stuff doesn't float, regardless of how you discharge it! :D
 
Deleted User said:
The F53 has a slightly odd fuel tank arrangement, the logic of which I've never quite understood. There are 3 tanks...
Click to expand...
Well, let me tell you that you seem to have understood more than any other F owner I've had the occasion to meet, anyway! :D
Yep, I knew that it wasn't a fuel transfer pump which you mentioned, but the lack of it is more critical when if you don't have any other means to transfer fuel through engine/genset return pipes, as in the boat I was talking about.
 
Danchc said:
Sorry to ask so many questions, but something is bugging me. I recall (perhaps incorrectly) that you said you could get over 1,000nm range with the extra fuel tank. Using figures you mentioned for Match 1 of 16lpm at 20kts, with 7,400L you can only get 462.5nm.

Presumably, at a sedate 10kts, you would get better fuel consumption, but I have no experience with planing boats and lower speeds vs better fuel efficiency to have any chance of working it out.

What would be a best speed for maximum range, and what range?

Thanks
Click to expand...

Yup, range obviously depends on speed. At anything 20-26 knots it does 16lpm so as you say that is 460nm range. That's very respectable btw, Antibes to Mahon or Palma, or Antibes right around Corsica and back, all with fuel to spare. None of the other FairPrinSeekFerrettiCanadosAquastar genre of boats will do that; the semi custom Dutchies, like lovely Van Der Walk et al, might

At 16-17 knots, ju-u-u-st hanging onto full planing attitude, it is 14 lpm ie 500nm+ At about 11 knots, displacement, before you start pushing up your bow wave and wanting to plane, it is 7-8lpm, 925m range. At proper displacement 8 knots (which I have tried for a while, getting ready for when my brother arrives next year in his 8 knot boat and we cruise in company!) it does 4.5 - 5 lpm, = 1500nm.

FWIW, with one engine on at idle speed in gear, 5 knots, the rangeometer shows 3000nm+ when tanks are full. That's a bit theoretical of course :D

The above figures do not allow for reserve so you'd need to factor that in if doing a trip, but with this size of tanks and sight gauges plus electronic fuel measurement you don't need to do the 20% thing. 20% = 1500 litres which is quite a lot more than you need for a safety margin and I'm happy to run the thing down to empty main tanks and 50% mid tank, ie 700 litres reserve, without any stress.
 
jfm said:
Great stuff :-). Funniest thing about Ferretti plumbing though is that (iirc) they discharge the black tank ABOVE the waterline. Just lovely :-)
Click to expand...
Even better, they don't fit a blackwater tank guage (just nearly full and full lights) and they cunningly hide the discharge outlet under the bathing platform extension so you have to lean way over the port rail to watch the discharge otherwise you don't know when the tank is empty. This means that not only do you get a good lungful of the odour of the stuff you've just pumped overboard but if you fall overboard thanks to leaning too far over the port rail, you fall straight into the stuff. I'm sure it's got something to do with this continental need to inspect your own no2's for health reasons
 
jfm said:
Yup, range obviously depends on speed. At anything 20-26 knots it does 16lpm so as you say that is 460nm range. That's very respectable btw, Antibes to Mahon or Palma, or Antibes right around Corsica and back, all with fuel to spare. None of the other FairPrinSeekFerrettiCanadosAquastar genre of boats will do that; the semi custom Dutchies, like lovely Van Der Walk et al, might

At 16-17 knots, ju-u-u-st hanging onto full planing attitude, it is 14 lpm ie 500nm+ At about 11 knots, displacement, before you start pushing up your bow wave and wanting to plane, it is 7-8lpm, 925m range. At proper displacement 8 knots (which I have tried for a while, getting ready for when my brother arrives next year in his 8 knot boat and we cruise in company!) it does 4.5 - 5 lpm, = 1500nm.

FWIW, with one engine on at idle speed in gear, 5 knots, the rangeometer shows 3000nm+ when tanks are full. That's a bit theoretical of course :D

The above figures do not allow for reserve so you'd need to factor that in if doing a trip, but with this size of tanks and sight gauges plus electronic fuel measurement you don't need to do the 20% thing. 20% = 1500 litres which is quite a lot more than you need for a safety margin and I'm happy to run the thing down to empty main tanks and 50% mid tank, ie 700 litres reserve, without any stress.
Click to expand...

3000nm!! - That's Portsmouth to Bermuda, or almost New York - but it would take a while at 5 kts (25 days! Weather permitting). Probably not recommended - but then again, it would be the first Fairline boat to do it by it's own engines - I assume. I wonder if the engines would hold out for 25 days continuous running???

Thanks :)
 
Piers said:
Hi JFM. I'd be interested to know if you have access panels in the tanks for when eventually they need cleaning. I ask because our Fleming doesn't, and I'm planning to have them installed. A huge job since access to the top isn't possible, and going in sideways meets with the baffles. Hmmm.
Click to expand...
I think not Piers. however I have great access to the top of all the fuel tanks so they could be cut if needed (not in my lifetime). The centre tank is very exposed simply by removing the plywood lid under the mattress of mastercabin bed, and the main tanks are accessed by removing panels in the saloon floor just abaft of step up to dining area (not a trivial job as I have a wood floor not carpet, but do-able)

Given what you say, how/where will you put them in the F55? You need good access to get all the swarf you'll create out
 
jfm said:
I think not Piers. however I have great access to the top of all the fuel tanks so they could be cut if needed (not in my lifetime). The centre tank is very exposed simply by removing the plywood lid under the mattress of mastercabin bed, and the main tanks are accessed by removing panels in the saloon floor just abaft of step up to dining area (not a trivial job as I have a wood floor not carpet, but do-able)

Given what you say, how/where will you put them in the F55? You need good access to get all the swarf you'll create out
Click to expand...

Exactly. Not an easy job at all. My thinking at the moment: if I fit a fuel polishing system it must be powerful enough to churn the rubbish (and 'gunge') up from the bottom of the tank, suck it out half way up or so, process it (filter) clean it, and then pump it back to the base of the tank in an endless loop. No chance of a top access, just a base access. But even then it will be hard to churn on other sides of the baffles effectively. Sadly, no drawings exist of the insides of the tanks made for Play d'eau.
 
Deleted User said:
In normal mode both engines and the gennie draw fuel from the larger port tank ... but the starboard engine returns fuel to the starboard tank. ... I leave the transfer pipes between all 3 tanks open,
Click to expand...

Deleted User, it's a good thing you leave the balance pipes open. If you didn't, and had full tanks, and were burning say 100lph in the starboard engine, you'd be dumping 100lph++ into the sea through the starboard tank's air vent!
 
Piers said:
Exactly. Not an easy job at all. My thinking at the moment: if I fit a fuel polishing system it must be powerful enough to churn the rubbish (and 'gunge') up from the bottom of the tank, suck it out half way up or so, process it (filter) clean it, and then pump it back to the base of the tank in an endless loop. No chance of a top access, just a base access. But even then it will be hard to churn on other sides of the baffles effectively. Sadly, no drawings exist of the insides of the tanks made for Play d'eau.
Click to expand...

Hmmm. Tricky one. Needs some thought. I personally hate fuel polishers that suck fuel, filter, then return to SAME tank, becuase the amount of dirty unfiltered fuel approaches zero asymptotically but never actually reaches zero, even if you run the thing for a week. It's worse still if you have "backwaters" behind baffles that do not join the general flow of fuel to the polisher's inlet. It's worth a thread and some boat drawings/pictures perhaps, if you want to kick around ideas on what to do with Play D'Eau in this regard?
 
jfm said:
Deleted User, it's a good thing you leave the balance pipes open. If you didn't, and had full tanks, and were burning say 100lph in the starboard engine, you'd be dumping 100lph++ into the sea through the starboard tank's air vent!
Click to expand...
Yup that thought had already occurred to me when I got the boat! I was more concerned about leaving the transfer pipe open to the aft (and lower) 3rd tank. Btw do you fill Match from both sides or one? I find that on my boat, I have to be very careful, particularly when filling from the starboard side, because the transfer pipes are not large enough to transfer fuel at the same rate as you fill, if the pump has got a high flow
 
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