Boat build quality musings

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tcm

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following on from the bav thread...

I wonder if there is a tendency - with a lower priced boat (or car, anything realy) to leap on the (often unusual) failure of any element of a broken boat (espcially if the boat isn't yours) and say Aha!! - and THAT is indicative of the quality throughout the boat! What do you expect, tsk, pay peanuts, hardly surprising tsk etc. expect serious problems, probably all like that

Whereas ... those who spend much more on a boat - perhaps many times the cost of a bav46 might also have problems...But it's almost always a completely different reaction. "Yes, there are always going to be teething problems, highly tuned boats, forefront of technology, small volume, no worries about the quality overall of course and this is a very unusual failure and in fact over x hundred boats and ten million miles of blah this is the first time this particular, and aftrsales fully covers it etc etc and after all it is a handbuilt boat sir..."

So the keel falls off a bavaria boat costing say 120k and arg worldwide panic, engineering investigations and legal, told you so, i'd never have one of those, that's it, etc. Reaction type 1.

Later, the mast snaps off a brand new oyster costing thick end of £3million or more - and barely a murmur. Bad luck, don't gloat it's bad form, just a one off... the second reaction applies. And it's the same with nearly every problem in an expensive boat. And yes, there's plenty of "snags".

Perhaps, when something costs a fortune we simply can't handle the notion that, heh, parts of it might be actually total rubbish, in terms of that thing doing what it's supposed to do. Perhaps this might extend to the whole thing. They might have chosen totally inappropriate and over-expensive materials and been unfamiliar with them. Or just jacked up the price anyway.

There's also a weirder notion, espcially with boats: things can fall apart on a regular basis, appear to use some quite manky components (or at least, not obviously incredibly 3x price ones) AND YET they're still revered as very high quality boats. The cheap stuff might often a lot less or even no such maintenance, but nevertheless hah jeering skoda lada trabant hahar potato bus-shelter junk hoho pah!

Intersting eh? Power of marketing? Perhaps.

I don't own bavaria or oyster, btw...
 
This is all oh so true TCM. Maybe there are some quality issues with the general mass produced AWB, but take the problems as a % of the total sold and compare that with the 'quality' boat and there would be little difference.

Peeps often get all gooey over some of the older traditional makes, from when GB had a boat building industry. But and someone will I'm sure know the details, didn't Westerly have problems with the keels on a couple of their models? When do you ever hear people taking the 'P' out of them?

As for choice of boat, whatever you buy there is something you will compromise on, whatever the size.

I think the quality issue of any product can be summed up with one of my own experiences. For years I owned Citreons, still have two. I never ever had any problems with them. People used to turn their noses up, but they were/are good cars. I then bought a Saab 93 in 2001. It was the worst car with the most faults that I have ever had!
 
Suspect you've hit the nail on the head there.....

Interestingly, I find myself in the position of looking at boats at the moment, and I am nervous of particularly looking at Bavarias, not because of anything in particular build wise, but more because I don't really want to face the grief i'd get on here for buying one....

However, when I step back and rationalise it.... they have masts from the same manufacturer, Selden, as many 'quality' brands.... much of the deck gear is Reutger, another good brand, and I would be suprised if they source their resin from different manufacturers as say Oyster, HR etc etc and despite what anyone would like to claim otherwise, a precisely controlled manufacturing technique does produce better overall consistency than hand made stuff......

As you say.... the power of marketing....
 
A similar analogy might be along the lines of "would you refuse to buy a mass produced car like a Rover or Mitsubishi (or any of 100 other perfectly reliable vehicles) for a reasonable price, and insist on only buying a hand-built car for 10 times more, because the handbuilt car just HAS to be more reliable, better quality, etc?"

I think not....... so why do we feel we have to apply these 'standards' or criteria when assessing boats?
 
Hey. Don't be a whimp. Buy what you want.
I've had Fronteras and a Rav 4 and all sorts of apparently awful cars. I don't pay any heed to the cloth-ears who chant out the accepted criticisms.

If you fancy a Bav, buy one and enjoy it.
 
A lot of truth in this, one of the most reliable cars I ever owned was a (much maligned) Morris Marina.
Bavaria boats are well made in the sense of consistency of construction, and have generally good quality fittings. To keep the price down some corners are ineviably going to be cut. If you pay four times as much for one of the top brands, you certainly do not get four times as good a boat, but you can expect better finish (you might even get it!) and should get deck fittings that are really up to the job, rather than being at the small end of the acceptable range.
 
Hee hee.... a reliable Morris Marina!.... you were the one then!!!!!!!!

My first vehicle was a Marina Van (I was doing lots and lots of racing at the time, and it was useful for lugging kit around) (and besides I was given it, providing I pushed it the 4 miles home - i'll never forget that day!)

I had to weld the top back on twice as it rusted away, it broke down constantly, I replaced the engine twice.....

Eventually it went to the great car graveyard in the sky when I threw the old gearbox through the back windows in anger after changing it for yet another replacement on the drive of a girlfriends parents house.....
 
Big topic.
Any 'name' is only as good as the design and the feedback generated by volume of units sold.
I would be worried if Bavs continue to suffer keel failure...
One measure of quality is how far can you push the envelope of its intended operating parameters.
Another measure (of interest perhaps if you intend to go off and clock up lots of miles)is how easy it is to replace stuff that wears out..
....and is the gear supplied with the boat in the first place really of a specification that you would choose for a long and trouble free service life?
Lastly the power of selling a dream or lifestyle...style is easy,moulding big boxish whiter than white hulls with lots of floorspace and windows is dead easy and attracts customers..and if attractively priced and lightweight,well something has had to give somewhere along the line,no?A 30knot series of test sail manouevres should be most illuminating.
 
Agreed it would be illuminating.... the thing I can't decide, along I suspect with many others, is whether Bav/Jen/Ben get their pricing right through efficient and automated manufacturing techniques reducing manufacturing costs and high volumes, or by cutting too many corners....
 
I did not say I had an old one!
The Marina was in fact the first car I ever bought new, that was in 1972, and it was a 1.8 coupe. In fact it did have one problem, when brand new it was using oil. I took it back to the garage and made them investigate. The story of what they found tells the story of British Leyland at that time. The 1.8 engine was supposed to have its pistons selectively fitted, that is to say that a piston was correct fit if (without rings) it would just slide down the bore under its own weight. The garage stripped the new engine and found all four pistons were a sloppy fit. They replaced them with correct sizes, and the car was thereafter oil tight, and a lot quicker than most.
When I sold it after 54,000 miles it was still entirely original apart from the tyres. Like all Marinas it had a nasty tendancy to steer itself at any speed over about 80mph. Apparently the Leyland bosses knew perfectly well that the steering geometry was wrong, but never did anything about it.
 
Aye,theres the rub(Shakespeare?)
I would judge each on a model for model basis,I think that is all one can do..
And maybe get chatting with some fleet(flotilla)service managers and repair yards,maybe?
Its a fine distinction between clever lightweight design(J boats use resin injection and loads of strategic laminates,for example)and others use computer modelling to 'just'achieve safe loadings in all the right places and then build em quick and orthodox...
Hey at the end of the day you are going to buy a boat and get out there and do it,whilst I am pontificating on 'ere /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Very well observed and very well put TCM! I don't get to posh Marinas much, it's a bit akin to interplanetory travel for me! But when on the few occasions I have found myself cowering in such places, I have oft been want to stare in disbelief at some of the cheap and horrible, totally unsuitable fittings adorning some of the large and very expensive craft within.

I have never set foot below in these craft, I think the owners take one look at me, and think "Boat Bum" .........So I don't have much idea of what they are like inside, but if the inside is like the outside, then I think that very often, there are an awful lot of people seperated from an awful lot of cash for not very much boat! /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Well said!

I have delivered loads of new yachts and motor yachts, and I would say that ALL have some kind of snag list. One particular make of motor yacht, I would never touch with a barge pole!! I've taken a yacht straight out of the box, a 21 metre gin palace, completed, carrying a price tag of £2.4m.

The finish of it was nothing short of abysmal. Doors not holding shut, carpets not going upto the bulk heads, 1/4 inch grub screws holding in grab rails, engine problems, anchoring points on the sun deck held in with same said screws expected to hold on to jet ski's, glass windscreens cracked, electronics not working, I could go on. I once took one back to the yard as there was so much wrong, and was requested to please just deliver it to the selling agent, as it was two months late as it was and it would be cheaper to send out an engineer to fix it once it arrived in Argentina!!!!!!

So I would agree, price tag today dose not guarantee build quality, at all.

Al
 
Maybe some of these customers get what they deserve?

Naaaaa, that's not completely fair, but why, especially if you are spending megabucks, don't people be a bit more choosy as to who they are dealing with, and what they are buying?

A bit more research, before getting rid of their loot would seem like a good idea to me? I mean, even if it's just a Gin Palace to spend the weekends on tucked up in a Marina, the people that buy these things still deserve to get value for money........don't they? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
Neil

We have a J SO 452 on the fleet and have had problems sourcing parts.

I understand that Jen had another subsidiary company manufacturing all their bits and bobs, and that they were unique the their boats. That part of the company went T*ts up. I'm happy to be put right on this though, so no quoting me.

We needed to buy a complete new main sheet track. Its on the coach roof fwd of the hatch. Now, because they're not made anymore, we had to by a Spinlock one and have it retro fitted. Yachting Sports at Hamble Point Marina did it, and a fantastic job they did too. It was young James Fawcett who did it, credit where credit is due. He had to make up new 'blocks' to support the ends............. Anyway, my point of this was, they are all as good and bad as each other.

I would love to have the moulds for the Dave Thomas Sigma's. I still haven't found a boat that suits all our requirements as well as the 38 does.

But thats my ideal vessel, it ticks most of my boxes. Thats how I look at it. No one manufacturer has what I need. I would like abit of this one, a bit of that one, /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Al.
 
They do! You should get what you paid for.

Trickle feed the cash as your vessel is built, as you would a house, we're talking the same sort of money, and we have all heard of the retention mortgage, why not have it for new boats or do we already, or just pay for the cost of build, and visit the yard un-announced, that would keep them on their toes, eh?

/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
The problem with Bavaria is that after two keels dropped off two boats in quick succession it was found that there were serious faults in that design when it came to holding the keel on. That is why they got so much stick for it.

There was a Bavaria 36 that hit the bottom rather hard in Falmouth last year. They got it out the water to find the keel had moved. They also found stress fractures running parrallel with the keel about 12 inches outboard of it on either side. when they took core samples they found that the thinkness of the laminate just outboard of these fractures was only 4mm thick. When Bavaria was contacted and asked about this all they were told was that it was within spec.

So if you do get a Bavaria, consider that you may only have 4mm of laminate holding the keel on.
 
OUCH!..........Ooooooo, not good at all! /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
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