Blue Ensign Abroad ?

[MainlySteam]

Hi Tom

I think Norway is the same as most countries in that the national flag is also the marine flag (I am part Norwegian BTW) - we get a number of Norwegian flagged cruise ships here.

Here registered ships may fly either the national flag (blue ensign defaced with the southern cross) or the marine flag (red ensign defaced with the southern cross) - there is also perogative for the admission of other flags of which there are a couple but rarely seen - so we are a little ways like UK in having a marine flag and provision for the recognition of others, but different in that we can also fly the national flag in lieu of the marine one.

For registered ships, of which we are one, there is theoretically a $5,000 fine if a correct flag is not flown (incorrect includes flying the flag of another nation) in port or at sea during the hours of daylight, or if directed to by a vessel of the armed forces of NZ. However, the vast majority of yachts do not bother when cruising locally and I have never heard of any trouble from that, let alone the fine being applied.

Personally, if we fly a flag, we fly the Marine Flag of NZ ie the defaced Red Ensign - which is also perfectly good enough for me.

John

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[MainlySteam]

Red Ensign on Land

In New Zealand there is provision for the marine flag (defaced red ensign) to be flown on land for certain Maori occasions. I understand that originally came about due to their fondness for the colour red /forums/images/icons/crazy.gif.

I wonder if there is any similar provision for flying the Red Ensign on land in the UK? Does anyone know?

Thanks for any comment.

John

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[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

Re: Hi, Jeremy

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

How goes it?

Yes - that's the reason. The people who worry about blue ensigns often talk about wearing the red "with pride" because of the record of the Merchant Marine. I can sympathise with that,

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Was this meant to be as patronising as it sounds. I wear the red proudly, not because I am happy with my lot, but because my family sailed under the red in WWII, my grandfather died on a British Merchant ship. I will never wear anything but the red, its significance to me is the same as your blue is to you.

It sounds to me like you think everyone who sees your ensign is jealous and would love the right to wear one. Well, no we wouldn't. But on the other hand, I really don't care what ensign you wear, if yours makes you happy then good for you, mine makes me happy so good for me.

fairwinds

<hr width=100% size=1>Julian

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[AuntyRinum]

I'm willing to admit to it. I fly a blue because it's the ensign associated with my yacht club. Would have thought that was obvious.
Amazing how these flag threads create so much excitement.

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[AuntyRinum]

<The tragedy is that nearly everyone else, including foreigners who sail our shores are laughing at you>

Johnny Foreigner has been laughing at the Brits since the beginning of the Empire. Who cares about that?
We find the Greek Guard with pom poms on their shoes amusing. Do you think they care? Do you think the Greeks should change their uniform because we think it's strange? Of course not, they're following tradition.
What foreigners think has never been a reason for any country to change anything.

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[chas]

Re: Hi, Jeremy

The ridiculous thing ids that in days when the country had a merchant fleet, almost as many merchantmen sailed under the blue as under the red. I cannot rememeber the exact rules, but if the master and a certain number of others were RNR (and many of them were), they were entitled to wear the blue. I can rememeber distinct feelings of superirity from mechantmen wearing the blue when talking about those wearing the red!

Having said that, I also believe that the ensign (red or blue, I like others wear either) represents a poignant memorial to those who lost their lives at sea. I do not mind which you wear or for what reason as long as you treat it with respect.

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[Violetta]

What rubbish!

I sympathise with the pride involved in both, vicarious though it be. If you feel "patronised" that really is your problem, not mine.

As far as your assumptions about my assumptions are concerned, well, I learned long ago that you can't defend against what other people choose to project on to you, however silly and unfounded, so I won't waste my time trying.

BTW, look again. Mine is a red ensign.

The only really interesting thing about this perennial is the fury the blue ensign produces in some sailors. Now that IS a remarkable phenomenon.

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[Jeremy_W]

Cool it Jules

I know you and I know "Violetta". You're both proud to sail under the Red Ensign, so don't pick an argument where none exists!

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[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

Re: Cool it Jules

ok, accepted, sorry if I missunderstood what you were saying Violetta, I took what you wrote to mean that anyone who stands firm behind a red duster when someone is discussing wearing a blue must be jealous.

Obviously this is not what you were saying and I jumped to the wrong conclusion.

Yours Miserable oooop north in the wet

Jools

<hr width=100% size=1>Julian

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[Violetta]

Thats OK

My position on this weird perennial could be summed up as follows:-

1. Blue ensigns have nothing to do with exclusivity/superiority - just a moderately interesting little quirk of history. (Clubs like the Little Ship Club and the Cruising Association, of which I am a member, can hardly be said to be grand or exclusive, after all)

2. People with blue ensigns (in my experience) don't perceive them as superior - but a lot of c**p gets projected on to them by people who choose to assume they do or who misunderstand the position (as some foreigners do - although most, again, in my experience, see it, rightly, as a non issue)

3. Its no big deal - so why make such a meal of it? (Mostly, I don't even bother with my red ensign in home waters, let alone hoisting a CA blue)

So let us be friends once more. Cheers from the mysteriously sunny East!

V



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[Violetta]

Thanks, Jeremy

For sorting that out. I never cease to be baffled by the notions and attitudes that people attribute to others on the internet.

Not sure about the "pride" bit though. I can sympathise, in the light of the heroism of both merchant and RN seamen - but seamen of many other nations showed equal courage and endurance. And it wasn't me, after all that sailed on those Russian convoys and swept those mines (That was more the province of my father and father-in-law - and they did good jobs if their respective decorations are anything to go by) But when it comes to patriotism, I'm with Samuel Johnson:-

"The last refuge of the scoundrel"

V

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[alec]

Re: Thanks, Jeremy

Violetta,

You have made quite a large contribution to this thread and I have genuinely enjoyed it.

What I have not heard from you or any othet Blue flyer else is the following :-


‘ Why not let’s push for change by making it lawful for any British subject to fly a Red or Blue ensign when on a boat without having to be a member of a special club or having done military service’

We could then make any special point that we would want to do based on feelings from history, our family, or whatever. British tradition could then be maintained as a personal CHOICE ( which has been my point from the start ).


But you haven’t have you ? Neither has any of your fellow supporters.

WE all know why it has not been said don’t we ?

You would just be amongst the rest of the rabble wouldn’t you ?

And the only real reason for you flying a Blue is to set yourself apart from the rabble. Bugger ! Another Britsish tradition of making people feel inferior gone !

Is there any chance for us to have a nostalgia for the future for a change ?

Regards,



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[Violetta]

More rubbish

Alec

What I believe is to be found in what I write - not in the projection of your (very offensive) prejudices. Do you read what is written? (It appears not ) Do you expect me (or anyone else) to answer questions you haven't asked?

There is no "right" answer to this - just a lot of different opinions and I happen to disagree with yours. I also think, as I have said, that it's only a big deal for people who choose make it so. The obsession with "superior/inferior" is no part of my life, as it seems to be of yours. Perhaps if you saw the beloved, self built, self maintained, 30 year old, smallish, seaworn boat upon which my RED ensign flies, you might realise that. I don't know what kind of boat you have, but I bet there are lots of people that would project all kinds of "rich, snobbish" etc. c**p onto you, simply because you are a "yachtsman". I can imagine your indignation.......

You are entitled to your opinion and I to mine, which is that you are tilting at windmills. Most people I know long since gave up fretting about whether someone is trying to make them feel inferior or not. If anything is reminiscent of the bad old days, then that is it.

There are so many more important things to fret about. If you want to do something to benefit sailing, do something worthwhile. How's access to sailing for disabled people doing in your area....?

Now I must go. I have some volunteer work of my own with the local kids' sailing charity. You know, those inner city kids have a great time, even though I am married to a man with a blue ensign!
<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Violetta on 13/08/2004 10:50 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[chas]

Well said

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[l'escargot]

Re: Thanks, Jeremy

But you already have a choice, you can join a club and be just as entitled as everyone else!

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[TheBoatman]

BrettH
I'm with you on this one,,, theres nothing like a "blue" discussion to raise the temp of the forum.
IMHO wear what ever flag you feel comfortable with and b****er the rest. If yer uncle or grandad served in WW2 in the merchant service then by all means honour him by flying a red. If you want to honour your club by flying a blue then do so, what the hell? Life is to short to be arguing about such petty matters!

I will say that as far as I know we are the only country (England) to be banned from flying our National flag at sea, on land no probs, I refer to the cross of St. George, the only vessels to fly this flag is the RN and then it is defaced. If your just a "Joe Bloggs" you may incurr a fine for flying a St G flag from your vessel.

One more thing, dispite my lack of enthusiasm for flag etiqute, I would never fly the EU daisy chain as it means absoluty nothing to me as I am English and proud of it.

Everyone should remember that whilst England is part of Europe it's not actually conected to it?

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[Jeremy_W]

Not quite

>>> ... I refer to the cross of St. George, the only vessels to fly this flag is the RN and then it is defaced. If your just a "Joe Bloggs" you may incurr a fine for flying a St G flag from your vessel.

The Dunkirk "Little Ships" which helped evacuate troops in WW2 are allowed to fly the St George's Cross and they do so at every opportunity.

But I agree that the prohibition on flying the National Flag is strange.


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