Blue Ensign Abroad ?

[MainlySteam]

Not sure what all the fuss is about. After all the other 6 billion odd inhabitants on this planet can fly a blue ensign almost anywhere they want so it seems rather a common ensign to me.

While it has been tradition that a warship of a nation may escort to a port in its own territory any vessel flying incorrectly a flag of the warships nationality, seems rather a long haul back to any territory of "old blighty" from most of the world these days and is obviously unlikely to happen.

We actually fly the red ensign defaced with the southern cross and anyone can fly the blue instead, should they so wish, with no fear of mindless tut tuts from the stuffy and gormless, or from the little hitleristic issuers of warrants - eat your hearts out /forums/images/icons/smile.gif.

John

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[alec]

I would summarize this debate by saying that I have achieved absolute zero in trying to persuade by argument , the case for us trying to unite us under one flag when representing our Country. No matter what anyone’s background was or is.

Also, I would say that not one of you has made any possible inroads as to my position before this started, even when I have tried to keep an open mind. All I hear from all of you is words like ‘entitled’ ‘earned’ ad infinitum. This is what is important to you not the reason for doing so . And what is most important to you is for people to SEE that you are entitled to it thereby creating the division.

You cannot, probably from your own background and journey’s through life ( and I mean most sincerely, not your own faults, I may similarly be entrenched in another subjects) understand what on earth I am talking about. The tragedy is that nearly everyone else, including foreigners who sail our shores are laughing at you. I urge you to do a search on this forum over the last fewyears as I have. This is another tragedy. It reminds me of the time when I first started work when many ex services carried their ‘titles’ into work for effect like major colonel etc. They also ended up as figures of fun and derision.

The debate has been most informative though in understanding you further .

For information, my own father served in the merchant service throughout the war on convoys and I also have relations who lost their lives at sea during this time. Like many many thousand s throughout Europe the old commonwealth and America . But this in no doubts a personal thing to most.

Regards,


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[MainlySteam]

<<<The tragedy is that nearly everyone else, including foreigners who sail our shores are laughing at you.>>>

Very true.

While I openly envy the the history and the traditions of Europe, things we do not have much of here (NZ) or else have borrowed, I have to say that the importance placed by some, especially in England, on their artificial attempts at preserving and flaunting personal status with flags is generally regarded with amusement in many other parts of the the world.

Not knocking, just a view from the outside looking in. I openly concede that there is much to amuse outsiders looking in here too.

Regards

John

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[BrendanS]

Still trying, very hard, too see your point, and failing abysmally?

<hr width=100% size=1>Me transmitte sursum, caledoni

 

[MASH]

Alec, all three of our national maritime ensigns contain the symbol of the United Kingdom. What could be less divisive than that? What on earth are you beefing about? How sad to be so consumed with such pointless imaginary class-ridden envy (bigotry) and disrespect for your own history. I pity you.

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[BrianJ]

Re:I dunno

What the hell you are talking about... sail into OZ flying your " Blue" and we will throw empty beer cans at you.. no, seriously , we would go out of our way to hepl you enjoy your stay, but that goes for all yachts of " foreign " flag.

WQe dont really give a stuff if you are an Admiral , potential blank file or a sailor with a lot of miles under his keel.. its welcome all .
BrianJ

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[Guest]

Tradition and respect

These are fine and I for one hate the destruction of our traditions and old ways in UK society etc.

Trooping the colour, ensigns, Old Boy networks - its all part of British ...... but of course the worls changes and you have the Blairs etc. who want to tear it down.

Maggie showed one thing when she was PM ..... regardless of whether you liked her or not .... when was the last time you saw street parties ? Falklands Conflict over .... the Bulldog Spirit and Community came out ..... tables, chairs, grub etc. all appeared in the streets - fantastic.

Ok onto today ..... I have posted some Anti-Blue threads and I believe that they were valid - why ? There are too many snobs and smart b-ds out there that seem to think it a passport to being stupid and hogging channels, ignoring others etc. Leaving Southsea Marina .... on Video no less ...... big Storebro Motor Cruiser with of course guy with peaked cap and the regulation blues and whites on ..... blue ensign large as can be ..... smack bang in the middle of channel - cutting the corners etc. forces me out of the channel, no sign of any recognition on the guy as he motors past with nose firmly up in air ......

The tradition of ensigns - great, its all part of being British - but some lessons in manners and etiquette to those entitled to fly ..... as they sure forgot 'em when they left the services or whatever.

Rant over !!!!


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ... and of course Yahoo groups :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/

 

[Violetta]

Poor Alec

People who can't or won't see things your way are SO annoying, aren't they?

You are sorry for the poor laughing stocks with blue ensigns; they are sorry for the poor obsessives such as yourself who get all worked up about it - and the rest of the world goes its merry way..........

Still, it all makes the forums go round!

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[Jeremy_W]

Re: Asking the right questions?

>>> All nations have their quirks and this - the commemoration of sterling service, mainly in coastal forces during two world wars, by past members of certain yacht clubs* - is one of ours.

>>> *In case you didn't know, that is why certain clubs were granted to right to issue warrents - that, and nothing else, is what it signifies, although many and various prejudices are projected upon it.

Fascinating contribution, Violetta. I had always heard myths about this.

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[zefender]

Re: I\'m entirely with Alec on this

"Trooping the colour...Maggie when she was PM..., Falklands war, Old boy networks, Bulldog Spirit... Street Parties" etc

Perhaps I can add "jerseys as goalposts in the park, beer at tuppence a pint, licking the cake mixing bowl, Watch with Mother and Enid Blyton. This is just romanticism. The reality is that the world has changed (no, not just because of Tony Bliar) and for most people, life never was nearly so idyllic.

People in most countries are patriotic and would never allow their flag to be defaced or messed about in any number of colours just because for ancient reasons it was bestowed upon them by Kings and Queens. Royalty used to give their mates entire counties. I don't think we need to go back to that do we?

Blues, defaced this and that are just anachronistic, slightly potty and entirely tribal (er classist). As such they are entirely British. Which is why they'll probably be around awehile yet. Regretably.



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[Violetta]

Hi, Jeremy

How goes it?

Yes - that's the reason. The people who worry about blue ensigns often talk about wearing the red "with pride" because of the record of the Merchant Marine. I can sympathise with that, but can never understand why the same respect cannot be extended to the record of the yachtsmen who pretty well ran the coastal forces. After all, in neither case were these the exploits of those who wear the ensigns now. Naturally, it tends to be the old established clubs that were given this honour - the ones that predate the two wars. Quite why the Royal Yacht Squadron got the white I don't know. I think I've only seen one RYS yacht in my entire sailing career (perhaps because I don't frequent the Solent)

That's what its about and the "snobbery" or "superiority" aspect is, in my experience, largely a projection of the attitudes of those who make the accusation. As far as the national unity bit is concerned - well, the good old union flag is always there in the corner. All flags represent something of the history of a nation and that's what the blue ensign does - represent an honourable snippet of history. I rather like that (even though the "hers" ensign on the Black Ketch is a red)

Hope you've had some good sailing this year?

V

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[Guest]

Post deleted by danfoley

 

[zefender]

Re: NM

.

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[longjohnsilver]

You anarchist!

Is Sid Vicious still alive and sailing a Bavaria? /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

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[zefender]

Re: You anarchist!

No, but he does have a Benteau

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[walker]

Re: Asking the right questions?

Hope everyone has there copy of 'Tramp the Dirt Down' ready for when the evil witch finally departs:

"I saw a newspaper picture from the political campaign
A woman was kissing a child, who was obviously in pain
She spills with compassion, as that young child's
face in her hands she grips
Can you imagine all that greed and avarice
coming down on that child's lips

Well I hope I don't die too soon
I pray the Lord my soul to save
Oh I'll be a good boy, I'm trying so hard to behave
Because there's one thing I know, I'd like to live
long enough to savour
That's when they finally put you in the ground
I'll stand on your grave and tramp the dirt down

When England was the whore of the world
Margaret was her madam
And the future looked as bright and as clear as
the black tarmacadam
Well I hope that she sleeps well at night, isn't
haunted by every tiny detail
'Cos when she held that lovely face in her hands
all she thought of was betrayal

And now the cynical ones say that it all ends the same in the long run
Try telling that to the desperate father who just squeezed the life from his
only son
And how it's only voices in your head and dreams you never dreamt
Try telling him the subtle difference between justice and contempt
Try telling me she isn't angry with this pitiful discontent
When they flaunt it in your face as you line up for punishment
And then expect you to say "Thank you" straighten up, look proud and pleased
Because you've only got the symptoms, you haven't got the whole disease
Just like a schoolboy, whose head's like a tin-can
filled up with dreams then poured down the drain
Try telling that to the boys on both sides, being blown to bits or beaten and
maimed
Who takes all the glory and none of the shame

Well I hope you live long now, I pray the Lord your soul to keep
I think I'll be going before we fold our arms and start to weep
I never thought for a moment that human life could be so cheap
'Cos when they finally put you in the ground
They'll stand there laughing and tramp the dirt down




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[Mirelle]

A pedant writes...

The Little Ship Club was formed in the 1920's and was awarded its Blue Ensign in the 1930's, at the suggestion of the Admiralty, for services to training. The award came out of the blue, so far as the Club was concerned - they had neither lobbied for it nor expected it. In the clubhouse there are several interesting bits of bunting, two of which are very pertinent - one is the Club burgee worn by the small motor cruiser "Constant Nymph" at Dunkirk. Her owner, an elderly civilian was decorated for his services there. There is also a Club blue ensign (damaged) which was found on the beach at Dunkirk, owner unknown, and presented to the Club.

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[Guest]

My point is ....

Tradition and respect have a place irrespective of change.

It is actually NOT true that UK is only country to have defaced flags ..... there are others - in fact there are some that have changed their flags defacement repeatedly over a short period .... I will leave it to you lot to trawl those out .... but they are true.

I am not a person to ignore or abhor change - it has to evolve and I am first to embrace new .... but I also respect the past and tradition.

As to Sid Vicious - I actually like the guy - he made a statement in his time that meant something to him and many others - so don't knock it.

That bastion of 'freedom' hah hah .... USA has some quaint customs and traditions - so don't think the UK is alone in this world. And they / we pale into insignificance against some countries customs etc.

Yes I am a Royalist and I am proud to be one, but I also do not agree with some apsects of it ...... woe betide the day Blair and others get their way and we are a Republic ......


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ... and of course Yahoo groups :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/

 

[Guest]

Tramp the dirt ...

Read my post correctly and you'll see that I did comment that whether like or not etc.

My example was the show of British pride and the street parties that occurred without prompt from any political party / other .....

Is it that all actions of a person are bad, or are there some actions that are acceptable while others not .... which is generally the case for all mankind ?

Whatever you think about her and some of her policies - when you travel the world - its remarkable the copying of style and also remarks from others remembering her .... and majority of those comments are in her favour ! Like it or not - she put Britain back on the map and also in the frontline by being an active part of the group bring new order to the world ... Soviet Empire breaking up, Reagan losing his marbles etc.

I admit that many have hated her since and I do not agree with all she did ..... but I do not condemn her totally. Pity that we don't have a PM with real balls now to stand up to the crap that's going on and we are being dragged down with .....
Second pity is that there doesn't seem to be anyone out there suitable in any political party - so another years of crap ..... so I'll just go on living offshore and watch it all happen .....


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ... and of course Yahoo groups :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/

 

[tome]

John

I took some Norwegian relatives sailing last weekend (first time in UK waters) and they were similarly amused by the concept of blue ensigns, finding it all rather puzzling.

I've kept out of this debate, but my own views are simple. If the red duster was good enough for the brave merchant seamen of the Atlantic convoys then it's good enough for me and no number of warrants will persuade me to wear any other (regardless of entitlement).

Tom

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