Blue Angel (Canados 70s) Rebuild thread

[jfm]

Bart, ba looks stunning. It's nice to see her afloat again. The new name font looks great too.

For the transom door problem I still think the solution is what I suggested on here, with a picture, a year ago. It is more important now because the gunwale is "retrofitted". You need to attach the fairlead to the deck structure which is very stiff due to the flange at the top of the Grp hull moulding. If you don't do this your new paint will get cracked at the flexing points. All imho.
Here is my old pic. Obviously make the foot as big as possible. This all goes inside the gunwhale sandwich, hidden. I realise it involves cutting away your new interior Grp panels so this is not a small job now that you have finished.

 

[BartW]

this was yesterday morning 6am, when I left to go home,

@Mapism, excuses for the untidy fender arrangement, my regular crew (E) wasn't with me,
this was done by a lazy crew member (Alf) ;-)



notice one new bigger side fairlead, and one old

 

[BartW]

For the transom door problem I still think the solution is what I suggested on here, with a picture, a year ago. It is more important now because the gunwale is "retrofitted". You need to attach the fairlead to the deck structure which is very stiff due to the flange at the top of the Grp hull moulding.

J, I don't follow you on this,
the fairlead rests on this horizontal beam,
and that beam sits on the top of that flange / hull moulding
so I have sort of a vertical reinforcement already.

these pics are the best I have to show this:





it is the whole construction that bends a bit,
the bending is a few mil, not cm !

 

[BartW]

you might consider moving them right inside the tip of the gunwale curve, near the transom doors apertures.
This way, you could attach them somehow to the gunwale itself, making the whole structure concurrent and hopefully restricting any movements.

actually I'm considering this now as a very good solution,

installing extra pillars under the floor,
moving the SS poles towards the other side of the gate,
and fixing the gunwale to the SS Poles with a triangly shaped wooden block, ...
good idea !

I'm going to make a wider gap in the teak gunwale capping, 5mil instead of 1 mil,
and than I can see how critical this is...

 

[Portofino]

What about a S Steel tubular door ?
Leave the recent new work untouched .
Keep the old door for next owner if applicable and do it so,s it can be put back .

Acts a scupper to drain the rear cockpit too incase you get caught out unexpected in a bigger sea and take on a lot of water.
Buts that’s not the real reason here , you can have 1 or 2 cm clearance of what ever when closed to absorb any gunwhale flex .
You can also have a deck mount whereby the latch mechanism is situated - so absolutely no contact with the said gunwhale
These are all open - no pics sorry of closed
.https://imgur.com/a/55m53qz

 

[MrB]

What about a S Steel tubular door ?
Leave the recent new work untouched .
Keep the old door for next owner if applicable and do it so,s it can be put back .

Acts a scupper to drain the rear cockpit too incase you get caught out unexpected in a bigger sea and take on a lot of water.
Buts that’s not the real reason here , you can have 1 or 2 cm clearance of what ever when closed to absorb any gunwhale flex .
You can also have a deck mount whereby the latch mechanism is situated - so absolutely no contact with the said gunwhale
These are all open - no pics sorry of closed
.https://imgur.com/a/55m53qz

That's not a bad shout, you could have the door centres laser cut with a BA monogram. You could even incorporate the door hardware as per post #931 pic #3 attached to the new tubular doors Porto suggested.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

J, I don't follow you on this,
the fairlead rests on this horizontal beam,
and that beam sits on the top of that flange / hull moulding
so I have sort of a vertical reinforcement already.

Bart, I'm with jfm on this. If loads from the mooring lines on the fairleads cause the gunwhale to move and close the gap with the door then the fairlead is not well enough fixed to the hull. IMHO the mounting for the fairlead needs to be separate from the mounting for the gunwhale and it needs to be very substantial like the metal plate proposed by jfm and it needs to be well bolted to the hull

 

[MapisM]

actually I'm considering this now as a very good solution,

installing extra pillars under the floor,
moving the SS poles towards the other side of the gate,
and fixing the gunwale to the SS Poles with a triangly shaped wooden block, ...
good idea !

Yup, I also thought it was a good idea while I was writing it...

But now, looking at your last transom pic, I fear that it might be difficult to apply it.
In fact, on stbd side, the pole base would be right above the external side of the passerelle box, which at a guess must be very hard to reach for securing a strengthening pillar under the cockpit floor. Or isn't it as bad as I'm guessing?

Ref. the alternative suggested by PF, I suppose it can work well, and surely some folks would consider it as somewhat more modern.
'Fiuaskme, they are out of place on a boat like BA, but each to their own, of course.

Besides, while I see jfm and Deleted User point, I think it's unlikely that a stronger attachment to the deck could fix the problem, for two reasons:

Firstly, in a sense, it's a problem that doesn't exist.
I mean, looking at the fairleads position and design, it seems to me that in the mind of Canados designers they were not meant for crossed spring lines.
We should think of BA in the early 90s perspective, when dock space was not so critical, and she was a BIG boat (she still is obviously, but you know what I mean). Back in those days, whenever necessary (for local wind conditions, wash, whatever), they just pulled additional stern lines at a wider angle with the dock.
Btw, a crossed line from stbd fairlead inevitably interferes with the passerelle - but I don't think that was a design mistake, just something considered unnecessary.
So, arguably the problem could be solved by not using those fairleads for crossed lines and fit some other dedicated cleats - though I can see why BartW might find convenient to use the existing main cleats in the cockpit.
I'm saying all this because I assume that it's when crossed lines pull sideways, that the gunwale corner touches the transom door - i.e. the port transom door when crosswind blows from stbd, and the stbd door with wind from port - am I correct, B?

Secondly, the fairlead is already attached (very firmly, judging from the pics) to a solid wooden base resting right above the GRP hull top flange - the same one which should support the pillar that jfm suggested. So, I don't think that replacing the wooden base with a steel bit would significantly change the overall stiffness.
In fact, I believe that when the gunwale flexes just enough to touch the door, it ain't because the gunwale alone flexes, but the whole deck does, in that corner.
Without digging into geometrical math, I believe that in order to shift sideways by say 3mm the gunwale top, it's sufficient that the deck underneath flexes in that area by half mm or so - i.e. practically nothing, if it weren't for the (too accurate! ) transom doors.
Of course, I can't be 100% sure of this theory, but if this would be the reason, it's pretty obvious that strengthening the attachment of the fairlead to the deck would achieve zero result.
Otoh, the vertical steel pole installed in that position and made concurrent with the gunwale (leaving aside the potential problem I mentioned at the beginning) would resist the flexing right where it happens, regardless of any other flexing going on behind the scenes, so to speak...

But as I said previously, all has to be checked in flesh, possibly with the support of a good carpenter.

 

[jfm]

I don't agree. The boomerang shaped wood beams/plywood cut outs above the Grp hull top flange are attached mostly to air. Then there is another bit of wood above that. Then the fairlead, which I think is mostly just placed in its hole in the gunwhale sheetwok. And maybe screwed down into the wood but that counts for nothing. So the gunwhale wooden structure not the heavy hull top flange is taking some of the load and flexing. You can see from pics that the wood structure is all pretty flexible. The fairlead needs thru bolting tight to the Grp hull flange with polyu glue for good measure. Then it would not flex enough to jam the door. You could bolt it directly or weld some platework under the fairlead and bolt the plate work to the flange

 

[MrB]

Ref. the alternative suggested by PF, I suppose it can work well, and surely some folks would consider it as somewhat more modern.
'Fiuaskme, they are out of place on a boat like BA, but each to their own, of course.

I see what you are saying with regards to traditional lines on BA but the doors are recessed as seen in post #913 pic #2. If the doors were a complete wrap-round I would agree but as they are recessed the SS tubular doors Porto mentioned would work ascetically (impo) . Yes it would look more modern but in this instance i don't think it would be a bad thing. The new BA name is too small impo for the size of the boat but new stern doors with a BA monogram centred would tick all the boxes. I wish i had the time to PS a few images as I feel it would all work perfectly with the smaller BA name.

 

[BartW]

Some comments on all sugestions for gate door reinforcement, thank you all for contributing !

We never use the main cleats for crossed spring lines, we have separate cleats for that on the outside, so the forces from the ropes are mainly downwards !
Tbh I don’t worry much about cracking the new GRP / gunwale construction, as it is all made very solid, and the curvation makes it even more strong. The corner fairlead sits very tight in its position !, its rather the whole corner (and deck) that flexes a bit.

Next:
SS gate doors is absolutely no go on BA. MapisM guessed right and knows my style / taste.
So no further discussion about taste ;-)
These gate doors were made in winter 2012 when we build the transom steps, were absolutely the best solution imo,
I really like them, So don’t want to change that !

the purpose of fitting SS gate doors; they would enable more play between the door and the door jams,

And THAT is exactly what we acheeved, we sanded away a gap of about 3..4mm from the door,
and guess what,
the movement of the gunwale when winching the ropes is so small that the door does not touch the frame anymore…! (more or less visibel in this pic)




I have to admit in the past, when the old gunwale suffered from fatique, I preferred the door to touch the framing in order to make the whole thing more strong…

Now,
If we would need more reinforcement, imo the next thing todo would be to place another pillar like this,
Right under the jam of the transom gate, and resting on a hull frame,
But on the other side of the steps





Remember the deck floor is NOT sitting on the hull flange, it is mounted 20cm below, on its own (fairly light) framework,

@Mapism; moving the FB pillar to the other side was a good idea, but would not be a nice solution for reinforcing the gunwale,
The position of the pillar would be approx. 25..30cm forward from the gunwale, because that is where the FB border stops.
(when we keep the pillar vertical). So bridging that 25cm gap, or placing the pillar sloping, both don’t look nice… you understand ?


Swmbo has installed the new blue step lights. ( all new blue led courtesylights in the gunwale where installed by the yard )
yacht name with light is for next year..



More updates later.

 

[MapisM]

you understand ?

Absolutely.
And I'm glad to hear that you already found a much easier workaround for the transom door problem, even if very minor.

Oh, and congratulations to E (i.e. BartW swmbo, for those who didn't have the privilege to meet her) for the priceless contribution.
Your last pic show a stunning vessel indeed, whose timeless elegance should be an inspiration for any boat built nowadays, after more than a quarter of a century. :encouragement:
Apropos, I'm not sure I would add backlighting to the name, tbh.
Imho, BA is a boat which is much more apt to whispering rather than shouting, if you see what I mean.
But each to their own on a matter like this, as always!

 

[BartW]

I'm not sure I would add backlighting to the name, tbh.
Imho, BA is a boat which is much more apt to whispering rather than shouting, if you see what I mean.

Exactly !
the small letters have a certain "finesse" imho,
none of the yacht-light-name makers can make it that small,
and unless we find a solution that we like, the letters will remain without backlight

 

[petem]

Exactly !
the small letters have a certain "finesse" imho,
none of the yacht-light-name makers can make it that small,
and unless we find a solution that we like, the letters will remain without backlight

Bart, if you're happy without backlighting it would be a pleasure to make you some nice 3mm edge polished S/S letters in the same font as your vinyl ones.

 

[BartW]

Hi Pete,

Scuse for the geeky explanation (to some on here) that follows ;-)

BA has many SS details and accessories, (which we like)
The name logo is a separate “entity” that needs to stand out, and not be lost between all these SS lines / accents (transom door, rubrail, railing, fairlead, .. etc…)
So the boat name should be another color; Black or dark metal grey,
The latter is or will be used more on BA but not on the transom,
So the letters as they are right now are RAL 9023

For the light letters I’m considering the same, but made from Ral9023 color plexi, (10mm –ish thickness)
And a clear white plexy (6mm-ish) behind it…
Actually we can CNC cut this here in my co, but I didn’t find a solution for the lights (yet)

So thank you for your proposal ! If the choice was that simple; we have a company here around that corner that does often water jet steel cutting for us…

We discussed the name logo topic color a lot with the family,
every now and then I have to give the impression that I care about their opinion


 

[AndieMac]

BA is looking fantastic Bart, a real credit to both yourself and E.
Thanks for continuing posting updated pics during her ongoing rebuilding, it's quite inspirational and shows your dedication to this lovely vessel.
Hope you have a great season ahead

 

[Bernd1972]

Dear BartW,

I would urgentlylike to request your help. This request also goes out to other forum members. I know i am a noob here so you don´t know me.
My name is Bernd and I just recently tried to buy a Canados 70S, sent the deposit to the broker and got scammed. Presumably through a hacked company email account of the broker and redirected emails in between.
Still enthusiastic about these fine boats, i found this thread and read it from the very beginning. Now, in post number 533 you, BartW, posted a foto of a Canados 70S that is 100% identical with the foto used by the broker to advertise the boat I inquired for (but cut down without the boats in the foreground of the foto). Since I cannot send a PM to you, dear BartW, this is my only possibility to get in contact with you.
The broker (according to a background check a legit company) advertised a boat using this foto and only three others that probably even belong totoher boats of the same type underway somewhere and probably not even for sale. When I inquired for that specific boat he told me that the boat in the saled add (advertised on yachtworld and several other sites) was allready sold and he offered me a different one of the same type that "came in recently". Price was very attractive, I assumed due to the "not so popular" Detroit 12V-92 engines.
However, I lost my deposit I made after signing the MOA, got accused by the broker of beiing a scammer and now even wonder if he sold me the Brooklin Bridge or the Eiffeltower.

Please letme know if you have any information that might be helpful in this situation.

Best regards
Bernd

 

[BartW]

Hi Bernd,
yes indeed I'm still the happy owner of Blue Angel, a 1991 Canados 70s

sorry to hear about your deposit loss, but if there is one advice I can give you: keep your money in your pocked as long as possible in such a boat purchase process
especially in the case of such old boat purchase, and at least until you have seen the boat and the broker in flesh, and don't believe anything they say about a bargain or urgent decision, or whatever they claim about a certain boat on offer. especially in the case of such a old boat.
(there is no such a thing as a "bargain" boat purchase !)

these pictures of the above boat have been on brokerage sites even from before I purchased Blue Angel in 2011.
I saw in flesh quite a few C70 models before and after our purchase, but never saw the one in your pic, the peculiar thing is / was the jetski and it has MAN engines !
As you have noticed, brokers steel pictures from sister ships, and use them for their own boats on offer.

If you lost your money on a "existing" broker, and the amount is worth it, I would put a Lawyer on the case.

regarding the boat you wanted to buy, I was on one C70s with Detroid Diesel engines (even put an offer on her; Blue hull 1990 C70s Nefertari ) and looking back now, I'm VERY fortunate that we didn't buy that boat, she was in a much more bad state, and less good specs ( airco, pumps, battery's, ...) and I don't like the DD engines.

If you're in for C70s there are better models available, from 1991 onwards.., I can point you the weak spots of the model (usefull to negociate a discount ! )
or look around for the slightly younger C23 or C25, onwards from 1995 .. iirc these are full GRP, but only a few produced.

if you're interested in older "Character boats ;-) " you might be interested to browse through my boat search blog
Princess or Ferretti , what boat would you choose?

 

[Bernd1972]

Dear BartW,

Thank you very much for your reply. Indeed I was probably a little too motivated to get a reservation on that vessel, however, I like those GRP hull Canados 70s.

Having just sold my last boat (a wooden 65ft classic replica designed an built by me) I have a decent idea where to expect the ugly surprises with wooden structures in a marine environment.



With the old Canados boats I guess it should be the bulwarks just above the hull/deck joints, the places where doors, windows or other bits of hardware are installed and vitually every corner where water might collect and stand for a longer period of time.
Concerning the 2-stroke Detroits I am aware that they are quite an outdated technology, however, that´s something I can live with as parts will be readily availeable for a long time in the future. The downside with them is that they tend to have a much shorter TBO that your MAN 2842 engines.
However, the boat i´ve been offered apperantly just had their engines zeroed this spring and the owner has invested quite some during the last years and had no intention to sell until his business was hit quite hard by the coronacrisis. All seemed plausible and good so I decided to make a deposit and secure the boat for a survey and, if found acceptable, buy at the negotiated price.

While the C23 and the C25 have the advantage ofbeeing full GRP I have no issues with wood as long as it´s done in a propper way. And the fellows from Ostia really knwo how to build a decent quality, even of the older wooden ones quite a number are still alive and in reasonable conditionthough looing pretty dated today which is not the issue with the spadolini-designed GRP-hull C70. I know they were rather a transitory model betwwen the woodies and the step into full GRP boats at the Canados yard in the 1990s.

Considering the C23 and C25 they are still somewhat overpriced. And the bigger one is too much for me as i would like to handle that boat with family and without paid hands aboard as well (I have about 7000miles under my belt on the 65ft. boat)

I even had a law office do a background check on the brokerage office and it was indeed a correctly registred SRL with the broker I´ve been in contact with beiing the legit representative of his company. Now i have the police investigating, my bank is investigating antrying to get the money back, the layer´s office is trying to rescue what´s possible. I will even try to rescue the deal even though the broker insulted me in an extremely disgusting manner after we both found out that the deposit in fact went somewhere else. Now that prick is accusing me of beeing a fraudster and claims that all was i the intention to blackmail him, though I did not even request him to compensate me for the damage so far.

Perhaps the lesson learned out of this is never to make payments on contracts and invoiced sent through Email unless the information given have been confirmed through persoal contact and sent again after that on paper. The problem with the broker was allways that he requested me in our phone conversations to sent my questions and inquiries by email as he´s not really able to speak a second civilized language besides italian. Now he does not even consider that he has a security issue with his email account and refuses to start an investigation on his side as well, though he threatens me to have the police involved. I requested, even begged that he does just that, but I guess he might be afraid that he could find out to be responsible and accountable for that mess.

 

[Bernd1972]

My intention with the boat was to charter out to make some money to cover the running costs and reinvest into the boat with it and make it step by step the boat that fullfills my fantasy of how it should be. Never intended to make a profit and I am well aware that serious boats allways cost serious money. I am aware thatbargains are rare and usually have a reason why they´re inexpensive. I know that "Big Bill" is allways aboard, if it´s not upfront he´ll most certainly be hiding somewhere and you´re allways good adviced to find him before he finds you. ?