Blue Angel (Canados 70s) Rebuild thread

[BartW]

Apols too for thread rift - I only mentioned dates for losing Match in case BartW was in France on BA and had time to stop by and see/hear the stabilisers on Match before I lose her

will only be on BA from 30june,
from 3 july we have planned a weeks cruise along Le Cote d'azur,
so might drop by in PV,
and in case Match is not yet handed,
I might go listen to that silence

but,
iirc, you can drive that hydraulic pump also by a PTO from one of the engines,
do you mind posting some pictures from that setup,
wonder how all this is assembled together,
and how much space this takes.

 

[jfm]

Thank you too Bart for the kind offer of using your beautiful liner BA
I mixed up my replies above. I replied to MapisM about hydraulic noise, but I was really talking to BartW in saying that if he gets a chance he is welcome to see the stab hardware before Match goes to new owners, as research for his 2012/13 winter refit. Sorry for mix up

 

[jfm]

will only be on BA from 30june,
from 3 july we have planned a weeks cruise along Le Cote d'azur,
so might drop by in PV,
and in case Match is not yet handed,
I might go listen to that silence

but,
iirc, you can drive that hydraulic pump also by a PTO from one of the engines,
do you mind posting some pictures from that setup,
wonder how all this is assembled together,
and how much space this takes.

OK, I will keep you informed about dates for Match.

Yes, you drive stabs from PTOs. You don't drive "that" pump - each PTO is an independent hydraulic pump taking 40hp or so, and then the 3ph electric motor drives a 3rd pump. So, in total, 3 hydraulic pumps are available on the system. The electric pump is always turned off when engines are running, because it serves no purpose.

I'll try to find some pictures...

 

[BartW]

So, in total, 3 hydraulic pumps are available on the system.

whats the purpose of 3 hydraulic pumps ?
ok, redundancy, and a academic efficiency advantage with the PTO's,
but appart from that, a basic system could work from one electric pump I guess ?


its probably explained in détail in the SQ78 Build thread,
sorry for re-asking

 

[jfm]

But then you would have to use genset always when underway. I would insist on speccing boat so that on long cruises you can run boat with gensets off. Only turn on genset for cooking and airco. Main engines charge the 24v batteries and run the hydraulics. If crusing throught he night, say, it is really nice not to run a genset imho

Also my bow and stern thrusters are 45hp total, and the electric pump will never deliver that. So I need engine PTOs to get max thruster power eg berthing in cross wind

I dont think there is any real alternative to engine PTOs - at least one

 

[BartW]

But then you would have to use genset always when underway. I would insist on speccing boat so that on long cruises you can run boat with gensets off. Only turn on genset for cooking and airco. Main engines charge the 24v batteries and run the hydraulics. If crusing throught he night, say, it is really nice not to run a genset imho

Also my bow and stern thrusters are 45hp total, and the electric pump will never deliver that. So I need engine PTOs to get max thruster power eg berthing in cross wind

I dont think there is any real alternative to engine PTOs - at least one

Last year we almost never used the airco , and we cook with gas,
We hardly ever used the genny.
Only a few weekends ago, for the first time ever, I have switched on the genny during cruising (for the washing machine)
So I’m with you on the usage of the genny,

But

some time ago I read on here that some folks “alway’s” have the genny running when cruising,
And actually I don’t really see the problem ?
Especially not if I don’t plan to fit hydraulic thrusters
My genny’s are Kohlers 17Kw, and around 3000hrs each,
I'm sure you can't hear them running while the main engines are on.
(I'm just wondering)

 

[jfm]

I agree there is no problem running one of the gensets all the time. Many italian 25m boats are set up so you cannot run the boat without 230v. I just have an irrational dislike of that arrangement. Just a personal view, not scientific. I prefer to take the 15hp of hydrualic power that I need off the main engines, rather than start a 3.3litre diesel engine to make that 15hp

More just a personal gut feeling than anything scientific, I have to admit! Plus the need for +1 genset service per season I suppose...

 

[MapisM]

Bart, if as I understand you're trying to figure what would be the simplest solution for retrofitting zero speed stabs on your boat (with no need to integrate hydraulic thrusters, winch, crane, or whatever), I would investigate the feasibility of installing one pump directly on each genset.

I don't have any first hand experience on such solution, but in principle it would make sense imho, because:
1) it grants the same redundancy as with main engines driven pumps;
2) you wouldn't need a big electric motor and a VFD, and probably you could also avoid the accumulator, which is something like a scuba tank, but constantly working at an even higher pressure, and with hot oil inside, rather than just air, if you see what I mean...
3) whenever you need a lot of amps AND hydraulic power (e.g. while anchored, with stabs running, A/C turned on and cooking), I think that 2x17Kw should still be enough - though probably some care could be necessary to balance the gensets load. In fact, in such configuration, the pumps load would be transparent to your ammeter, but still relevant for the genset engine.

The main drawback is, as jfm said, that you'll have to keep at least one genset running while cruising, whenever you'll want to use stabs, but that's no big deal.

All that said, if I were speccing my ideal boat, I'd go for engine driven pumps.
But only because I so much agree on using the genset as little as possible, that I would get rid of the cost and the hassle of all the zero speed equipment.
In fact, I'm happier to live with some boat movements at anchor, than with the constant humble in background, but that's of course a very personal view, which also depends a lot on the sea sickness sensitivity of those onboard.

 

[MapisM]

You gotta get the right pump. Mine is almost impossible to hear even on the aft deck, right above the pump, so that proves that quiet motors and pumps do exist. Mine is mounted on rubber feet but the thing is intrisically quiet - it is not the rubber feet that make it quiet.

I'd be interested to know the exact model, and possibly see a pic, if you don't mind...

 

[BartW]

I understand you're trying to figure what would be the simplest solution for retrofitting zero speed stabs on your boat, I would investigate the feasibility of installing one pump directly on each genset.

MapisM I'm quite sure that a PTO on the genny's is not the simplest solution,
because: the genny engines are one complete assembly with the alternator, one metal housing,
and the genny's are nicely installed in a noice isolating case, and very little space around them in the e/r.


Remember that I have done a similar considaration / investigation / tests, for installing the scuba tanc compressor on the Karnic;
options were: PTO, invertors, extra generator,
and finally a petrol engine direct on the compressor was the simplest solution.


now for this stab. hydraulic pump,
I'm quite sure that a electric motor is the simplest solution, considering also the flexibility in where to place the unit in the e/r.
I agree that in a new build boat a PTO on main engine would be much better.


by the way, have you seen the (small) updates in my rudder thread ?

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I'm quite sure that a electric motor is the simplest solution, considering also the flexibility in where to place the unit in the e/r.
I agree that in a new build boat a PTO on main engine would be much better.

Agree with that. With the age of your engines, it might not even be possible to get the PTO drive from the engine manufacturer and then you may not be able to get a suitable hydraulic pump with a flange to fit that PTO. Agree with you on the genset PTO as well. Again you may have the same problem getting a PTO and pump combination plus you have to modify the sound enclosure. So IMHO an electrically driven pump placed conveniently in the e/r sounds like the easiest solution although I think that the efficiency loss will be greater than a PTO driven pump

 

[jfm]

FYI, 3 pics:

1. The pump and motor (10hp 3ph) on match. i don't know the pump model ID mapisM but I'll get it. To get your bearings in this pic, this hardware is port side of e/r, aft of the port engine. At bottom left is the door from aft crew space to e/r. so if camera man turns slightly left and walks through that door he is walking aft on boat's c/line and will come to the transom door. bottom right of pic black thing is port engine PTO

2. The tank/valves set on match - camera pointing across the beam of the boat looking at the port side. There are some nice features here incl restriction gauges on all the filters, the ability to operate all the valves by hand with levers, if you had (I suppose) elec failure and wanted to operate thrusters anyway. The line of valves is for stabs, thrusters, winches. The hydraulic oil cooling system also uses a hydrualic motor to run the seawater pump

3. The pump on the second stabbed sq78 that FL built, hull # 78, after match. Same pump turned 90deg. The tank was made smaller and so the whole installation was more compact and bulkhead-mounted, so this photo gives a better idea of the size of the hardware that you would need BartW. Match was a bit of a prototype for FL and Sleipner, so of course boat #2 is better. Since then FL have built one more stabbed sq78, and my new Sq78 will be the 4th they have built with stabs, so it will have some further refinements. The black box in 3rd pic is port engine PTO and you can see port drive shaft under it. The grey box far left of pic is the VFD to make the 3 phase and motor soft start

You can see both on pic 1 and 3 that the elec motor is on rubber mounts, like mini engine mounts

 

[jfm]

Agree with that. With the age of your engines, it might not even be possible to get the PTO drive from the engine manufacturer and then you may not be able to get a suitable hydraulic pump with a flange to fit that PTO. Agree with you on the genset PTO as well. Again you may have the same problem getting a PTO and pump combination plus you have to modify the sound enclosure. So IMHO an electrically driven pump placed conveniently in the e/r sounds like the easiest solution although I think that the efficiency loss will be greater than a PTO driven pump

I wouldn't worry about flange fit and getting OEM gear. So long as there is a little PTO shaft accessible under a lid on the g'box, you just buy a bolt-on hydrualic pump and get a flange adapter custom made by a machine shop. And maybe a small jackshaft adapter sleeve thingy if you cannot match the splines. Few hundred euros at most

Bart i have emailed you pdf drawings and spec detail on my PTOs. Sauer Danfoss. I cannot easily post on here becuase they are detail drawings and pdfs

 

[MapisM]

Interesting stuff J, many thanks.
Particularly the above installation looks very clean indeed.
With all due respect also for Match setup, of course!

A couple of Qs, if I may:

1) I can't see the accumulator. I guess it's placed elsewhere, but what makes me curious is that both the AC and the PTO pumps hoses seem interconnected. If that is the case, I suppose that the accumulator is always used, correct?
My understanding was that the accumulator is necessary only when the system is feeded by the AC pump, which has a lower power/capacity compared to the PTO driven pumps.

2) by chance, did the previous AC pump which was replaced look similar to the one below?
And if yes, was it much more noisy than the current one?

 

[MapisM]

by the way, have you seen the (small) updates in my rudder thread ?

Not sure, I'll have a look in a minute and comment in that thread, if I'll have any 2c to throw in...

 

[jfm]

The old noisy pump is below. Photographed during build,m so not fully installed. I cannot remember the make, but i think it was Danfoss. Not Bosch anyway. New one is definitely Rexroth. I like the "London taxi" look of the Bosch pump

The accumulator is just above those photos. you can see it below. As i undersntad it, it is makes a contribution mostly with the AC motor becuase (a) that is less powerful than the PTOs, plus(b) the stabs movement is more jerky (so needs accumulator) when in zero-speed mode. But the accumulator is "live" all the time (ie it is not isolated by any valve) so it sort of works underway on the PTOs, even if it doesn't actually contribute much to the whole show

 

[MapisM]

the accumulator is "live" all the time (ie it is not isolated by any valve) so it sort of works underway on the PTOs, even if it doesn't actually contribute much to the whole show

Aha, I see. Yep, obviously it can't hurt to have it permanently live.
I simply don't like the idea of an always pressurized sort of oil bomb in the e/r, particularly while cruising.
Not that I've ever heard of any accident, TBH. I just seemed to recall another setup where it's only live in STAR mode, but I'm not sure, I'll have a look at the diagram on the first occasion.

As an aside, I just loooove your Cat carpet. Do you have also the matching hat?

 

[BartW]

Bart i have emailed you pdf drawings and spec detail on my PTOs. Sauer Danfoss. I cannot easily post on here becuase they are detail drawings and pdfs

many thanks J,
I didn't realise that the PTO solution was so compact,
expected a visible shaft and aligning problems and all that...

I believe I've seen a shaft accesible with a lid, on the ZF gearbox,
don't have the manual on hand, but I have a copy on the boat,
easy investigation when I'm there.

also thanks for posting the pictures from your install in Match,
gives perfect impression about the hardware which is involved, and the space it will take.
I'm sure I've enough space in BA's e/r for a electric motor AND a PTO.
you're so insistent

 

[BartW]

I can't see the accumulator. I guess it's placed elsewhere,

The accumulator is just above those photos.

I assume its this box, with the Side Power logo ?

 

[MapisM]

I assume its this box, with the Side Power logo ?

Nope B, the accumulator is basically just a tank, not so different (also in size) from those used for diving.
It's the white bottle with a black belt, in the top left of jfm's pic below.