Bison Trolling Motor

[JumbleDuck]

Not just the batteries, the motors are low powered because the expected performance is low

A range of trolling motors is available. As others have pointed out, some have very respectable thrusts, which is hardly surprising when used on 20+' cabin cruisers.

The market has not moved on except that a small number of people (including probably me) are prepared to pay twice the price for a Torqeedo. The desire and demand for a cheap electric outboard is there but no manufacturer has so far tried to meet it - so how can the market have changed?

That's just silly. Of course the markets has changed - it's now possible to buy - at a price - an electric outboard which does everything a petrol one does and more.

Just because they charge that price for the battery does not necessarily mean it makes up half the cost of the complete motor, and as noted neither it (nor the complete motor) has fallen in price since it came on the market. So, where is your evidence of "prices are falling - and fast"?

Apart from this?

Yes and similar price to 4 years ago when we bought ours but for that £749 you now get 950 TMEUs capacity rather than the 550 TMEUs that our has (and still serves us very well with no range problems

Anyway, I was talking about Li-ion batteries generally.

You may also care to note, for example, that a replacement battery pack for a Tesla Roadster costs roughly a quarter of what they did when the car came out - and has a higher capacity.

Suspect there is a lot of wishful thinking going on here.

Not half as much as there is denial going on. The world and the market are moving on. You can ignore it or you can deal with it, but you can't prevent it or - reasonably - deny it.

 

[richardsn9]

Next, price. Why would Torqeedo want to lower their prices. They've enough of a market, I suspect, to keep them happy and no like-for-like competitors yet. That market bears their prices. I'm sure a competitor would stir things up nicely.

There is a new entrant to the market called ePropulsion, whose offerings are broadly similar to Torqueedo in price and a bit more refined. I was told they were started up by by some ex-Torqueedo employees. A bit of competition is always a good thing in terms of price and product development.

 

[KINGFISHER 8]

My Torqeedo Travel 1003 CS cost me €2000 direct from the factory- I didn't want one that a chandler might have had in stock for 6 months in the window! - at 3 knots, max in my marina and fast enough in my Zodiac 2.3, it will go for 33 kms, or 6 hours - flat out at 5 knots it will go for 10 kms or 1 hour. Enough capacity for most but its greatest advantage for me (and my back/hips etc) is that its total weight is 14.5 kilos and it breaks down into 3 manageable parts so is dead easy to fix to the dinghy transom from the boat and lug around the pontoons from the boat to the car if required. Worth every penny. I sold a Yamaha 4 (27 kgs) for €700 which covered some of the cost - that, like the Zodiac, had come with the boat when I bought it ... :encouragement:

 

[Tranona]

Not half as much as there is denial going on. The world and the market are moving on. You can ignore it or you can deal with it, but you can't prevent it or - reasonably - deny it.

Neither you, nor anybody else has provided any evidence that all this development has resulted in an electric outboard that can compete on price and functionality with petrol - at any horsepower range. It is exactly the same with any yacht propulsion system that involves electricity. I have been listening to voices like yours for over 20 years saying "its coming, you can't stop it" - and still it is not here, nor is there any sign that any manufacturer is making a serious attempt at resolving the main issues.

What is preventing a Tesla like pace of progress? Very simple. The marine engine business is tiny, particularly small hp engines, there is no world wide pressure for legislation to curtail the use of petrol or diesel and there is no pressing demand from buyers. as we have seen the gap in current price is huge, typically 100% premium and not a "perfect" replacement. So not surprising this market segment is low on the list of priorities for the organisations that do have technical ability and marketing clout.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Neither you, nor anybody else has provided any evidence that all this development has resulted in an electric outboard that can compete on price and functionality with petrol - at any horsepower range.

Trolling motors have completely displaced petrol outboards in a significant market and people like Torqeedos so much that they are prepared to pay roughly twice the cost of an equivalent petrol outboard for them.

I presume that when you buy a Torqeedo, as you said you might, we'll hear that the market has changed and that nobody buys petrol outboards any more.

 

[rotrax]

Trolling motors have completely displaced petrol outboards in a significant market and people like Torqeedos so much that they are prepared to pay roughly twice the cost of an equivalent petrol outboard for them.

I presume that when you buy a Torqeedo, as you said you might, we'll hear that the market has changed and that nobody buys petrol outboards any more.

IMHO a trolling motor must be smooth, quiet and easy to regulate to the required speed for trolling or controlling a drift/holding station while fishing.

The only mass market for them IS fishing.
Often found on a Bass fishers skiff in the USA, fitted at the front in most cases. Pro bass fihermen can earn really big prize money-$250,000 US IIRC.

Petrol outboards were rarely used for the same job-too noisy and crude. They put the fish down! Electric trolling motors are better. So, IMHO, trolling motors NEVER displaced petrol outboards from fishing use, as they were rarely used for that job. Poles or paddles were the favoured method.

As an aside, the late Bill Fruin of Brooklands and Veteran Motorcycling fame had an electric outboard with a highly polished alloy body.

He and the also late Rex Judd would use it attatched to a Canadian canoe on the Thames for fishing from the '60's to the '70's.

One day Rex dropped the battery-a 6 volter from his car-which went through the bottom of the canoe. Bill told me it was made just after WW2, and would last 2 hours of upstream travel with a bit of paddle assistance. Coming home downstream was easy with just the paddles.

 

[wombat88]

For a few years we used a Minn Kota motor with a very ordinary battery on a Winkle Brig. You learn how to manage your limited resources. Very pleasant to proceed silently and with no fuss too and from jetties and moorings.

 

[JumbleDuck]

For a few years we used a Minn Kota motor with a very ordinary battery on a Winkle Brig. You learn how to manage your limited resources. Very pleasant to proceed silently and with no fuss too and from jetties and moorings.

A couple of years back I was ghosting through the Kyles of Bute when I was passed by a family in an inflatable canoe, whizzing along silently with an electric outboard. It looked very stylish.

 

[Tranona]

Trolling motors have completely displaced petrol outboards in a significant market and people like Torqeedos so much that they are prepared to pay roughly twice the cost of an equivalent petrol outboard for them.

I presume that when you buy a Torqeedo, as you said you might, we'll hear that the market has changed and that nobody buys petrol outboards any more.

No, they have not. They are a supplement to petrol outboards. You really do seem ignorant about these things despite me and others explaining the background and use of these products. How do your 20' cabin cruisers get to their fishing grounds? surely they use an outboard (or inboard). You could use a small outboard for trolling and some do because it doubles as an emergency engine, but why do that when you can achieve the same result with an electric motor that cost around 1/3 the price and uses your onboard battery. Very different scenario from a yacht tender.

If I buy a Torqeedo it will be because I judge that it suits my needs and I perceive it as value for my money, not because of some indication that the market has changed.

 

[JumbleDuck]

You could use a small outboard for trolling and some do because it doubles as an emergency engine, but why do that when you can achieve the same result with an electric motor that cost around 1/3 the price and uses your onboard battery.

Precisely. For all your bluster, electric outboards have found a very successful niche market. The only thing restricting wider use has been battery limitations and those are rapidly reducing as batteries become both lighter and cheaper.

If I buy a Torqeedo it will be because I judge that it suits my needs and I perceive it as value for my money, not because of some indication that the market has changed.

That will make a refreshing change.

 

[Greenheart]

I'm happy to live with motor-assisted rowing as an improvement on rowing alone.

I love this idea. Still basically rowing, but constant thrust even with half the strokes. The serenity, the lack of sweat, and the readiness of oars if required. :encouragement:

...we used a Minn Kota motor with a very ordinary battery on a Winkle Brig. You learn how to manage limited resources. Very pleasant to proceed silently and with no fuss, to and from jetties and moorings.

I'm sure that's the point. The requirement for convenience makes sailing into a race (under auxiliary) for the places we want to sail, for destinations slightly too far away, and to make tide-gates, and to hurry back against wind and tide on a Sunday night because we have to get back...and mainly because we just can simply apply internal combustion to a situation which - a lifetime ago - required patience and calculation and seamanlike knowledge, but which must have rewarded these with a deeply satisfying sense of self-reliance.

I'm going to be in the time-short category myself, I regret. But considering the peace and purity and mastery of technique which most of us dream about as sailing sailors, what could be more desirable than passage-planning where tidal considerations are absolutely central, rather than an inconvenient obstacle we just blast past with a noisy engine? Waiting for slack water and fair tides, and only needing as much power as a silent auxiliary can deliver, seems to me as good as it gets for leisure sailors.

...they are a supplement to petrol outboards.

I call that a good moderate approach. I'm still (and will forever be) in love with the idea of silent power, but I'm expecting to launch a solid tender and travel a mile across an often bumpy, busy tideway to reach the mooring. On a calm day, oars alone and no hurry...when I'm feeling lazy, oars and trolling motor and possibly a hamper of lunch...and for days when the wind is blasting surf onto the slipway, a big petrol outboard that could help park the yacht if the diesel dies.

 

[steve350]

Precisely. For all your bluster, electric outboards have found a very successful niche market. The only thing restricting wider use has been battery limitations and those are rapidly reducing as batteries become both lighter and cheaper.



That will make a refreshing change.

I think Tranona is already using the electric outboard as a means of trolling.

 

[MINESAPINT2]

Have just come across this thread.

I bought a Bison 55 about 2 years ago which is very low powered. When my 85 amp battery failed I bought a 115 amp and as soon as I used the Bison after that the motor broke down. The switch had melted. Only explanation I can come up with is with the 85 amp battery 52 amps could not be sustained long enough to melt the switch whereas with the bigger battery 52 amps was sustained for a longer period. I would be interested if anyone can come up with a different theory. I should admit that I did not fit the recommended thermal fuse. Have now fixed the outboard (about £20 for new switch and fuse) and is working OK but I am now aware I cannot use it on full power. I only go up to speed 4 out of 5 so have even less power available. While repairing the motor I noticed there are spade connectors onto the switch and as far as I have been able to determine the most optimistic opinion regarding the amperage rating of these connectors is 30 amp. The switch had melted in the vicinity of one of these connectors. If 30 amp max is correct there is little wonder the switch melted at 52 amps.

Mike

 

[rotrax]

Like people who build on flood plains and complain when the carpets get wet, the trick is in the name. Flood plain/Trolling Motor.

Trolling motors are not normally used at full power. They are designed to carefully and quietly hold a lightweight skiff in position against current/wind or to slowly move the skiff with artificial lures being pulled behind. Most-but not all, of course- are used in freshwater and are always, in an angling/fishing situation, secondary to the main method of propulsion.

My two pennyworth anyway....................................

 

[sgr143]

I've posted about our experiences with a Bison 65 (62?) before... but this is a new thread, so here goes again.

We only have a short (200m or so) and relatively sheltered trip between shore and our mooring, and for that we have found the Bison to be just fine . We use small batteries, a pair of 22Ah AGM mobility scooter batteries. The batteries are each wired, using 30A electric cooker wire, to (2 terminals of) a 3 pin computer type mains socket, with the motor wired to a corresponding plug. The batteries each go in a handled carry pouch, obtained online from a golfing store, which makes them very easy to carry about. For our usage, there's no point at all in carting about some massively heavy large capacity battery. We need something where each component is easy for my wife to lift (ok, and me as well!). The wires get a bit warm if running at speed 5 for more than a few minutes, so I usually use speed 4, which is plenty to push our plastimo 300 tub, with two people and a load of stuff, through the water even if it's a bit choppy (up to the level of chop at which I wouldn't really want to be out in a flat bottomed tub anway, no matter how propelled). Speed 5 is nice to have as a bit of grunt in reserve.

I've had no problems with range; on working weekends I've gone to and fro many times on the same small battery, keeping the other as a reserve. But we don't have to go very far.

Suits us: might suit others with similar usage patterns; might not suit people with (a lot) further to go in rougher water or who want to go fast.

 

[lpdsn]

I've had the first trial sail with the trolling motor. I survived! No voice from the heavens saying you're doomed with a huge foot stamping down on me. But it was just around the marina.

It was actually a fair bit better than I expected. 1st of 5 speeds was easily comfortable enough to move at a reasonable speed. I reckon at speed 5 the prop was cavitating a bit but it just wasn't worth trying that for long as it would just be wasting battery power. I reckon in most circumstances speed 2 will be fine without even having to use the oars.

It was very quiet. I sneaked past about 6 foot away from a bloke sanding the wood in his cockpit ready for varnishing and he didn't even notice me.

I'm basically just using a starter battery at the moment, so if the first season proves a success I might get a better battery. Still, it was still 12.5V after about 700 yards and a few trial burst at full speed. Recharged fine with a solar panel the next day despite the bleak overcast skies. I fitted a cheap solar charger into the battery box and have a couple of MC4 connectors sticking out so I can plug in a serious recharging or just trickle charging panel depending on what I want at the time.

 

[Murv]

Good stuff! Funnily enough, I was thinking of this thread today as I thundered (relatively speaking) back from the mooring against wind and tide with the Bison whirring happily away.

 

[GTom]

I've posted about our experiences with a Bison 65 (62?) before... but this is a new thread, so here goes again.

We only have a short (200m or so) and relatively sheltered trip between shore and our mooring, and for that we have found the Bison to be just fine . We use small batteries, a pair of 22Ah AGM mobility scooter batteries. The batteries are each wired, using 30A electric cooker wire, to (2 terminals of) a 3 pin computer type mains socket, with the motor wired to a corresponding plug. The batteries each go in a handled carry pouch, obtained online from a golfing store, which makes them very easy to carry about. For our usage, there's no point at all in carting about some massively heavy large capacity battery. We need something where each component is easy for my wife to lift (ok, and me as well!). The wires get a bit warm if running at speed 5 for more than a few minutes, so I usually use speed 4, which is plenty to push our plastimo 300 tub, with two people and a load of stuff, through the water even if it's a bit choppy (up to the level of chop at which I wouldn't really want to be out in a flat bottomed tub anway, no matter how propelled). Speed 5 is nice to have as a bit of grunt in reserve.

I've had no problems with range; on working weekends I've gone to and fro many times on the same small battery, keeping the other as a reserve. But we don't have to go very far.

Suits us: might suit others with similar usage patterns; might not suit people with (a lot) further to go in rougher water or who want to go fast.

I was wondering how the Minn Kota Endura 55 would compare?
Otherwise, the Bison is salt water rated an cheaper, tempted to get a Bison 55 or 68.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I think I wrote this update elsewhere: We bought a second hand Bison 55 and a nice new 34Ah AGM battery and although we've only used them on fresh water so far, the combination seems fine. Maybe not quite a Torqeedo, but around 1/10 of the total cost ...

 

[pvb]

I think I wrote this update elsewhere: We bought a second hand Bison 55 and a nice new 34Ah AGM battery and although we've only used them on fresh water so far, the combination seems fine. Maybe not quite a Torqeedo, but around 1/10 of the total cost ...

How do you think it would cope with the 4-5kt currents which GTom apparently has to counter?