Bison Trolling Motor

[JumbleDuck]

That was not the point of the post - and Seagulls are still widely used for this purpose. Trolling motors are not a good substitute for a Seagull. Yes they sell, but not in the market where Seagull was operating.

Seagulls aren't selling too well in that market either, though, and at least trolling motors are selling ...

As to whether it was a good decision to reject I note that in the UK trolling motors are generally sold through ebay - how often do you see them for sale in mainstream chandlers and outboard dealers? The reality is that in the UK (and I suspect most of Europe) they are a fringe product in relation to the mainstream yachting industry.

Very few chandlers I go to sell outboards, as online retail has taken over that market. However, anywhere selling to the fishing world seems to sell trolling motors.

 

[JumbleDuck]

But can you imagine a troling motor made by Seagull?

Small tank of oil and a drip tap?

 

[JumbleDuck]

Actually many of our motors were used for trolling (in the purest sense) by inshore fisherman. Trolling for bass for example in a sturdy 15' clinker boat with a 102 on the back running at half throttle and 2-3 knots for hours on end was a common sight 50 years ago!

The world has moved on. Loch Ken is very popular with sport fishermen based at four different places and I have never seen one trolling with an ic outboard. It's electric all the way now.

Of course that doesn't mean that the motors are all suitable for sea use, but the ones which push 20'+ cabin boats around should easily be up to pushing a 3m dinghy in a bit of wind. Batteries have always been an issue, but with 12V Li-ion down to <has a quick look at eBay> ~£8 per Ah, which is the equivalent of ~£4 per Ah in lead-acid at a fraction of the weight, that problem is rapidly resolving.

When some real competition to Torqeedo emerges, and an electric dinghy outboard plus battery comes down to £500, I expect the small petrol outboard to be eaten alive.

 

[Tranona]

The world has moved on. Loch Ken is very popular with sport fishermen based at four different places and I have never seen one trolling with an ic outboard. It's electric all the way now.

Of course that doesn't mean that the motors are all suitable for sea use, but the ones which push 20'+ cabin boats around should easily be up to pushing a 3m dinghy in a bit of wind. Batteries have always been an issue, but with 12V Li-ion down to <has a quick look at eBay> ~£8 per Ah, which is the equivalent of ~£4 per Ah in lead-acid at a fraction of the weight, that problem is rapidly resolving.

When some real competition to Torqeedo emerges, and an electric dinghy outboard plus battery comes down to £500, I expect the small petrol outboard to be eaten alive.

My comment about Seagulls being used for trolling was slightly tongue in cheek as I was talking about the 1950s long before sport fishing as we now know it became popular. Many fishermen earned a good living with this basic setup and even in the 1970s when I was there it was a significant market for us, both in the UK and in parts of S Asia such as Malaysia where my last big sale involved over 2000 engines built specifically for that purpose.

What you are describing is a UK equivalent of freshwater sport fishing in the US. That was starting to get big in the 1970s, particularly with the programme of drowning small river valleys which created shallow lakes and underwater obstructions such as the remains of trees. The common setup was a flat bottomed planing boat rather like a Boston Whaler with a big outboard a couple of seats, bait well and an electric trolling motor (or more than one) perfect for either trolling or keeping the fishing platform in position. Battery power was not a problem as it was charged by the outboard and permanently installed. It was seeing these motors in 1977 in the US that prompted us to investigate them as both potential competition and a possible additional product for us to offer. Not pursuing it was the correct decision and 40 years later would still be the right decision.

However, that is all irrelevant as this thread (at the risk of repeating myself) is about their suitability and practicality for use on a yacht tender, more than likely to be an inflatable. In this respect you cannot ignore the fact that even after being on the market for over 30 years they have not made any real impression on this market segment as nothing has changed. Of course you can speculate on improvements in range from better batteries, but this "promise" has been there for as long as I can remember and has still not become a reality at a reasonable cost. So the few that do use them put up with lugging a heavy limited capacity lead acid battery around.

Once the promised battery arrives and the limited power is resolved by fitting a more powerful motor (so increasing power requirements and/or limiting range) this may change. But until then the existing products will have only limited appeal.

 

[rotrax]

Having used a trolling motor for its intended use and been in a tender with one as passenger, I agree with the above.

The Torquedo is a different, far more suitable animal.

Many lakes in Europe-Austria, Germany and Switzerland forbid petrol engines on envioromental grounds.

Hence the German Torquedo

 

[wombat88]

As one who has sat in a boat listening to the electric outboard slowly die away to nothing I am still keen to see new developments in the battery field...

 

[JumbleDuck]

Not pursuing it was the correct decision and 40 years later would still be the right decision.

"We decided not to offer a product which other companies still sell profitably decades after our company went under." OK, it's not Rootes Group deciding that nobody would ever buy a VW Beetle, but I don't think you're in the running for "Great Business Decisions of the 20th Century" with this one.

Of course you can speculate on improvements in range from better batteries, but this "promise" has been there for as long as I can remember and has still not become a reality at a reasonable cost.

Li-ion batteries have made Torqeedos viable.

 

[Tranona]

"We decided not to offer a product which other companies still sell profitably decades after our company went under." OK, it's not Rootes Group deciding that nobody would ever buy a VW Beetle, but I don't think you're in the running for "Great Business Decisions of the 20th Century" with this one.



Li-ion batteries have made Torqeedos viable.

You misunderstand (seemingly) the strategic decision. As I said they have not made any real impression in the Seagull market. Does not mean there is no market for them, but not as an alternative to a petrol engine for tenders. The Torqeedo does do that but at more than twice the price. Trolling motors are less than half the price of a petrol outboard but have still not replaced them.

You are right. If somebody could produce an electric outboard at near the price of a petrol they would do well. However, despite all the hype this is no nearer reality than it was 10 years ago when the Torqeedo came on the market.

 

[JumbleDuck]

YTrolling motors are less than half the price of a petrol outboard but have still not replaced them.

Except for trolling, where they completely dominate the market.

You are right. If somebody could produce an electric outboard at near the price of a petrol they would do well. However, despite all the hype this is no nearer reality than it was 10 years ago when the Torqeedo came on the market.

I think it's a lot nearer reality, because the price per Ah of Li-ion batteries is falling fast. I agree that they are not there yet, but I don;t think there is far to go. A £500 electric outboard with Torqeedo performance will kill the 2.5-3.5hp ic market.

 

[lpdsn]

Bought one anyway. I'll try it over the summer and write up some feedback on how useful or not it is in practice.

As I said earlier, I'd ruled out a petrol outboard. There's a nice spot in the for'd heads where I could store an outboard but I'm not keeping a petrol one there.

I'm under no illusions about it being anywhere near as powerful or have the range of a petrol outboard. The intention has always been to supplement oar power. At least I'm less likely to annoy nearby boats with a loud buzzing noise.

 

[Plum]

Bought one anyway. I'll try it over the summer and write up some feedback on how useful or not it is in practice.

As I said earlier, I'd ruled out a petrol outboard. There's a nice spot in the for'd heads where I could store an outboard but I'm not keeping a petrol one there.

I'm under no illusions about it being anywhere near as powerful or have the range of a petrol outboard. The intention has always been to supplement oar power. At least I'm less likely to annoy nearby boats with a loud buzzing noise.

Thanks. Look forward to seeing your review.

Www.solocoastalsailing.co.uk

 

[JumbleDuck]

The intention has always been to supplement oar power. At least I'm less likely to annoy nearby boats with a loud buzzing noise.

I'll be interested to hear how you find it. I want one for Loch Ken so that we can explore the networks of creeks and islands at both ends without disturbing the birds.

 

[Tranona]

Except for trolling, where they completely dominate the market.



I think it's a lot nearer reality, because the price per Ah of Li-ion batteries is falling fast. I agree that they are not there yet, but I don;t think there is far to go. A £500 electric outboard with Torqeedo performance will kill the 2.5-3.5hp ic market.

So, are you finally accepting that trolling motors are not viable for tenders? See you are now considering one for what is effectively "trolling" and has rather different requirements than a practical engine for a cruising yacht tender.

Yes, an electric outboard as you describe is currently pie in the sky. Prices of Li-ion batteries may well be falling (as we have been told for years) but nobody seems to have converted this into a viable electric outboard at a price comparable with a petrol. Does the battery in Torqeedo constitute more than half of its cost?

 

[JumbleDuck]

So, are you finally accepting that trolling motors are not viable for tenders?

It's not trolling motors per se which are the issue; it's the batteries, and that problem is rapidly heading for solution.

Yes, an electric outboard as you describe is currently pie in the sky. Prices of Li-ion batteries may well be falling (as we have been told for years) but nobody seems to have converted this into a viable electric outboard at a price comparable with a petrol.

I think you will simply have to accept that the market is moving on.

While there have been numerous false dawns in battery technology over the years (remember sodium-sulfur) there is no doubt that Li-ion is a viable technology for many applications previously unsuitable for electric power. And yes, prices are falling, and fast.

Does the battery in Torqeedo constitute more than half of its cost?

Yes.

The Travel 1003 is £1,449 from Torqeedo and a spare battery is £749 (51.7%).

 

[RupertW]

It's not trolling motors per se which are the issue; it's the batteries, and that problem is rapidly heading for solution.



I think you will simply have to accept that the market is moving on.

While there have been numerous false dawns in battery technology over the years (remember sodium-sulfur) there is no doubt that Li-ion is a viable technology for many applications previously unsuitable for electric power. And yes, prices are falling, and fast.



Yes.

The Travel 1003 is £1,449 from Torqeedo and a spare battery is £749 (51.7%).

Yes and similar price to 4 years ago when we bought ours but for that £749 you now get 950 TMEUs capacity rather than the 550 TMEUs that our has (and still serves us very well with no range problems)

TMEU = Torqueedo Magic Electrical Units because you have to calculate the amp hours yourself

 

[richardsn9]

My Torqueedo is now eight years old and going strong. Overall, I am very happy with my choice. Expensive, yes, but no servicing costs, and I can chuck it in and out of the car without petrol smells, and it is a one-handed lift in and out of the dinghy with the battery detached, so works for me.

 

[lw395]

My Torqueedo is now eight years old and going strong. Overall, I am very happy with my choice. Expensive, yes, but no servicing costs, and I can chuck it in and out of the car without petrol smells, and it is a one-handed lift in and out of the dinghy with the battery detached, so works for me.

Servicing is a good point, I don't recall ever seeing a PBO thread 'my Torqueeddo won't start'.......
A lot of outboard owners spend maybe £100 on a service every year?

For us, we'd need Li batteries to get cheaper yet.

 

[RupertW]

Servicing is a good point, I don't recall ever seeing a PBO thread 'my Torqueeddo won't start'.......
A lot of outboard owners spend maybe £100 on a service every year?

For us, we'd need Li batteries to get cheaper yet.

And best of all no need for anybody to worry about their pull cord technique so the Torqueedo can save me up to 3 hours on a typical day at anchor.

 

[Tranona]

It's not trolling motors per se which are the issue; it's the batteries, and that problem is rapidly heading for solution.



I think you will simply have to accept that the market is moving on.

While there have been numerous false dawns in battery technology over the years (remember sodium-sulfur) there is no doubt that Li-ion is a viable technology for many applications previously unsuitable for electric power. And yes, prices are falling, and fast.



Yes.

The Travel 1003 is £1,449 from Torqeedo and a spare battery is £749 (51.7%).

Not just the batteries, the motors are low powered because the expected performance is low and if the motor was as powerful as the Torqeedo, power consumption would be higher so range less. Just adding a lighter battery to the current trolling motors would reduce weight and perhaps increase range, but not deal with the limited thrust. No such thing as a free lunch!

The market has not moved on except that a small number of people (including probably me) are prepared to pay twice the price for a Torqeedo. The desire and demand for a cheap electric outboard is there but no manufacturer has so far tried to meet it - so how can the market have changed? - it is still dominated by petrol (and possibly LPG).

Just because they charge that price for the battery does not necessarily mean it makes up half the cost of the complete motor, and as noted neither it (nor the complete motor) has fallen in price since it came on the market. So, where is your evidence of "prices are falling - and fast"?

Suspect there is a lot of wishful thinking going on here.

 

[lpdsn]

Not just the batteries, the motors are low powered because the expected performance is low and if the motor was as powerful as the Torqeedo, power consumption would be higher so range less. Just adding a lighter battery to the current trolling motors would reduce weight and perhaps increase range, but not deal with the limited thrust. No such thing as a free lunch!

The market has not moved on except that a small number of people (including probably me) are prepared to pay twice the price for a Torqeedo. The desire and demand for a cheap electric outboard is there but no manufacturer has so far tried to meet it - so how can the market have changed? - it is still dominated by petrol (and possibly LPG).

Just because they charge that price for the battery does not necessarily mean it makes up half the cost of the complete motor, and as noted neither it (nor the complete motor) has fallen in price since it came on the market. So, where is your evidence of "prices are falling - and fast"?

Suspect there is a lot of wishful thinking going on here.

Interestingly, they seem to come in various sizes depending how much thrust you want. Naturally more thrust would take more battery capacity, but the hours at full speed aren't vastly dissimilar.

A few comparisons:
Torqeedo 503L - static thrust given as 40lb* - €1,549
https://www.svb24.com/en/torqeedo-travel-503l-electric-outboard-motor.html
Torqeedo 1003L - static thrust 68lb - €1,849
https://www.svb24.com/en/torqeedo-travel-1003l-electric-outboard-motor.html
Bison 40lb thrust - £109 (plus of course battery and box)
https://www.amazon.co.uk/BISON-ELEC...18204163&sr=8-3&keywords=bison+trolling+motor
Bison 68lb thrust - £169.99
https://www.amazon.co.uk/BISON-ELECTRIC-OUTBOARD-TROLLING-PROPELLER/dp/B00BTFVQWQ/ref=cts_sp_1_vtp
Bison 100lb thrust - £199.99 - plus you'd need a bigger battery
https://www.amazon.co.uk/BISON-ELEC...18204163&sr=8-2&keywords=bison+trolling+motor

*also gives 220W effective output which a quick noddy calculation shows as in the same ballpark as the thrust figure.

Bison power consumption/peak current figures modified by a conservative value for prop efficiency give comparable figures to the Torqeedos, so I believe fair to assume the thrust is measured using broadly comparable techniques.

But of course the Torqeedo wins hands down for its stylish package.

Next, price. Why would Torqeedo want to lower their prices. They've enough of a market, I suspect, to keep them happy and no like-for-like competitors yet. That market bears their prices. I'm sure a competitor would stir things up nicely.

There are fair sized Li batteries on the market designed as direct 12V Lead acid replacements, some with capacities over 100Ah. I've not seen any as cheap as £8/Ah but they're not far off. Naturally they're cheaper in the US. Of course with a Li-ion battery you get the full capacity, so 100Ah is 100Ah and not 50Ah.

I reckon once a packaged waterproof Li-ion 12V 50Ah battery reaches £250 to £300 then Bison motors or their competitors will have the edge.

PS Bison claim they suitable for seawater, see Amazon links. If it turns out not to be the case I'll certainly be pushing Amazon strongly.