Beta engine breakdown in the clyde !

[Crinan12]

YES!

There's your first problem to sort before looking at anything else. Could be a mix of bad fuel, water or rusty tank. That will be a priority job over the winter to clean or replace the tank.:encouragement:

I cleaned my 130l tank out at 10years old and took out a egg cup full of bits. But I'm extremely, what's the word, particular about filling up. I only fill from cans, my cans that have been pre-filtered. Unfortunately it is a lesson we all learn. And where to avoid filling up. I avoid marinas for two reasons, firstly cost and secondly low through put and poor handling. I always fill from commercial fishing ports where 10,000's of litres are going throuigh the system each week so no lying fuel.

I've actually cleaned it as best as I can Chris. Wiped it with rags and got as much of the bits of rust out as possible. I feel it needs a hoover thou ! Quite a few of the bits were about the size of a 5p and the lots of tiny bits. Is that just the tank rusting from the inside do you think?

Going to fill up from the marina in the morning (no choice!) and then hopefully make it to Dumbarton!

I spoke to the owner today. He's a good guy and I trust him. He said he last cleaned the tank 12 years ago.

Thanks
Douglas

 

[RichardS]

Harry (and others )

I pumped all the diesel out of the tank today. Looked okay apart from at the end which was dirty. Then I put my hand in the tank and pulled out 2 handfuls of this sludge/corroded bits of tank!
Does that look bad? It does to me but I've never seen the inside of a tank before.

I'm wiping the inside of the tank with clothes just now. Seems quite rusty

Cheers
View attachment 81256

As suggested, that might well be diesel bug. What is your tank made from?

If you're not using any biocide, then I would suspect the bug. I had a touch of it once in both tanks and have used biocide (Marine 16) ever since and the problem has never re-occured.

Richard

 

[Crinan12]

I've been using marine 16 myself richard.
Tank is metal - steel I suppose?

Thanks

 

[RichardS]

I've been using marine 16 myself richard.
Tank is metal - steel I suppose?

Thanks

I see .... so bug sounds unlikely. Is it stainless steel like mine? If it's mild steel then maybe it is corroding internally. I don't know whether mild steel tanks are common but, if the corrosion is producing that much gunk, then perhaps something needs doing .... but, other than a new tank, I'm not sure what.

Richard

 

[ctva]

Good luck for tomorrow which looks like very light NW’rly and sun!

 

[Crinan12]

Hi Richard
I'm pretty clueless about all this stuff as you might have guessed and couldn't tell the difference between stainless and mild steel. I'll find out at sandpoint though

Cheers Chris..We just want to get to sandpoint with no dramas. High tide is about 12.30 so we are aiming to get there about 11am

 

[A1Sailor]

I've been using marine 16 myself richard.
Tank is metal - steel I suppose?

Thanks

I'm an experienced dinghy/cruising boat sailor. I happily, for example, sailed into North Gometra Harbour in my Moody336 and circled round two other anchored yachts then anchored - without troubling my unreliable engine. One of them dragged out the harbour during the night! We didn't sail off to rescue them...

http://www.scottishanchorages.co.uk/acarsaid-mor-gometra/4542101821

I suspect you are more reliant on your engine to keep you out of trouble.

If you can - replace your tank. If you can't (I couldn't without taking the boat to bits) empty it completely, wash it out with soapy water then steam clean it with a domestic steam cleaner. Cleaning it out properly solved my problem. Here's what else I did:
- I ditched my very basic fuel water separator and replaced it with one which also had a filter.
- disconnected both fuel pipes from the engine and steam cleaned them, jetting towards the tank.
- took both the "up" and the return pipe out the tank and steam cleaned them. They are just copper pipe... I shortened the "up" pipe by 1-2cm. Although reducing the available fuel by "1-2cm times area" I reckoned I didn't want to draw shite into the pipe and block it. Drawing from 1-2cm higher up in the tank seemed logical.
- I replaced the fuel filler cap with a new one with a new rubber seal - you don't want any rainwater or seawater getting in there...
- I added Soltrons to my diesel
I then had a season of entirely problem free sailing before selling the boat.

It sounds a lot of work but it isn't really. I wish I'd done it a season earlier...

I've been using marine 16 myself richard.
Tank is metal - steel I suppose?

Thanks

Your tank will almost certainly be mild steel. Bug is almost certainly your problem. They say that adding diesel bug treatment can precipitate sludge. I'm not sure if true.
Good luck.:encouragement:

 

[A1Sailor]

I see .... so bug sounds unlikely. Is it stainless steel like mine? If it's mild steel then maybe it is corroding internally. I don't know whether mild steel tanks are common but, if the corrosion is producing that much gunk, then perhaps something needs doing .... but, other than a new tank, I'm not sure what.

Richard

What do you think the crud in the pic in #58 is then? It isn't corroded steel.
"I'm not sure what" should be your signature...:ambivalence:

Edit:
You said:

As suggested, that might well be diesel bug. What is your tank made from?

If you're not using any biocide, then I would suspect the bug. I had a touch of it once in both tanks and have used biocide (Marine 16) ever since and the problem has never re-occured.

Richard

then you said "bug sounds unlikely".

I rest my case...

 

[Crinan12]

Cheers a1 they are really good suggestions especially the tip for shortening the pipe. I wish i had done it when i cleaned the tank today. My pick up pipe really low to the bottom of the tank -a few mm.
I think to actually replace the tank i would need to take the engine out or cut out the cockpit floor so not straightforward!
Do cars have these problems? I've never hear of it being an issue. Is it because we generally all drive about in new cars with plastic tanks ?

 

[RichardS]

What do you think the crud in the pic in #58 is then? It isn't corroded steel.
"I'm not sure what" should be your signature...:ambivalence:

Edit:
You said:

then you said "bug sounds unlikely".

I rest my case... Walloper.

You are, without doubt, the most obnoxious forumite I have ever had the misfortune to deal with. Thankfully, you will not last long on this forum.

I said "As suggested, that might well be diesel bug. What is your tank made from? If you're not using any biocide, then I would suspect the bug. I had a touch of it once in both tanks and have used biocide (Marine 16) ever since and the problem has never re-occured."

The OP replied "I've been using marine 16 myself Richard."

I replied "I see .... so bug sounds unlikely."

And you call me "walloper" and say that "I'm not sure what" should be my signature.

Please do not bother to post on this forum again as your intellectual limitations are an embarrassment to the Forum. :encouragement:

Richard

 

[A1Sailor]

My pleasure Douglas. Tanks can be cut up to remove them, but getting a replacement that will fit, maximise capacity and is affordable might be challenging. You should do your engine no harm by getting a can of new/clean/fresh diesel and running a length of rubber (fuel) hose to it. You obviously need to bleed and bleed as you have been. Lots of pumping with your girlfriend.
Just be aware that, as I explained in #57, you'll need twice as much fuel as you might think. Twenty litres should be more than enough to get you from Holy Loch to Dumbarton. It got my Moody336/BetaMarine35hp from Rhu to Largs. I put the sails up as a precaution.

As ctva says, there's hardly any wind forecast for tomorrow.

 

[A1Sailor]

You are, without doubt, the most obnoxious forumite I have ever had the misfortune to deal with. Thankfully, you will not last long on this forum.

Richard

If you had more insight your views might get accepted on here.

 

[Mistroma]

Cheers a1 they are really good suggestions especially the tip for shortening the pipe. I wish i had done it when i cleaned the tank today. My pick up pipe really low to the bottom of the tank -a few mm.
I think to actually replace the tank i would need to take the engine out or cut out the cockpit floor so not straightforward!
Do cars have these problems? I've never hear of it being an issue. Is it because we generally all drive about in new cars with plastic tanks ?

I assume the pickup pipe was the centre picture in your earlier post? It could have been a return line but seemed likely to be the fuel pickup. I'm glad you were able to remove the pickup pipe as it did look as if it might be seized (though diesel is a great penetrating oil).

The colour of the residue might be due to fine rust particles in an emulsion of asphaltines and water. It doesn't look particularly like diesel bug but is also a bit light for asphalines alone. The tank doesn't look much like stainless steel and a magnet will readily tell you if there are large rust flakes in the residue. It would be well worth investigating a replacement tank over the winter.

I replaced a steel tank about 20 years ago. It looked fine on the outside but suddenly developed a leak and turned out to be pretty rusty. I had a stainless replacement constructed by someone near Dumbarton and included a small, easily emptied, sump to catch water and general crud. I did have to remove the engine but that wasn't a big problem. I managed it with some wedges, wood, counterweights and a optional chain hoist (I can explain if it would help).

Asphaltines are often wrongly diagnosed as being "diesel bug". Diesel used to be much more stable when it was simply distillate within a given temperature range. However, demand outstripped supply and heavier oils were "cracked" (broken apart) to produce lighter oils. Unfortunately, this produces the required lighter/thinner product with some molecules which are prone to joining up again and producing some larger molecules (e.g. Asphaltines). I've tried to simplify my description and avoid being too technical.

Production of asphaltines is accelerated by low sulfur, FAME/Biodiesel, moisture, heat and other factors. I would expect most tanks to have a residue of asphaltines in the bottom these days and biocides won't cure that particular problem.

Cars don't suffer as much from either asphaltine contamination or diesel bug growth because fuel turnover is pretty high. Garages get frequent deliveries of fairly recently produced fuel and cars go through a tank fairly quickly. I worry about my car's tank as it sits unused for 6 months each year. I use a fuel stabiliser which also contains a biocide and also plan to replace the fuel filter in a couple of weeks.

 

[Crinan12]

I assume the pickup pipe was the centre picture in your earlier post? It could have been a return line but seemed likely to be the fuel pickup. I'm glad you were able to remove the pickup pipe as it did look as if it might be seized (though diesel is a great penetrating oil).

The colour of the residue might be due to fine rust particles in an emulsion of asphaltines and water. It doesn't look particularly like diesel bug but is also a bit light for asphalines alone. The tank doesn't look much like stainless steel and a magnet will readily tell you if there are large rust flakes in the residue. It would be well worth investigating a replacement tank over the winter.

I replaced a steel tank about 20 years ago. It looked fine on the outside but suddenly developed a leak and turned out to be pretty rusty. I had a stainless replacement constructed by someone near Dumbarton and included a small, easily emptied, sump to catch water and general crud. I did have to remove the engine but that wasn't a big problem. I managed it with some wedges, wood, counterweights and a optional chain hoist (I can explain if it would help).

Asphaltines are often wrongly diagnosed as being "diesel bug". Diesel used to be much more stable when it was simply distillate within a given temperature range. However, demand outstripped supply and heavier oils were "cracked" (broken apart) to produce lighter oils. Unfortunately, this produces the required lighter/thinner product with some molecules which are prone to joining up again and producing some larger molecules (e.g. Asphaltines). I've tried to simplify my description and avoid being too technical.

Production of asphaltines is accelerated by low sulfur, FAME/Biodiesel, moisture, heat and other factors. I would expect most tanks to have a residue of asphaltines in the bottom these days and biocides won't cure that particular problem.

Cars don't suffer as much from either asphaltine contamination or diesel bug growth because fuel turnover is pretty high. Garages get frequent deliveries of fairly recently produced fuel and cars go through a tank fairly quickly. I worry about my car's tank as it sits unused for 6 months each year. I use a fuel stabiliser which also contains a biocide and also plan to replace the fuel filter in a couple of weeks.

Yes that is the pick up tube. I didn't actually remove it though. Thanks for the info about diesel bug.

I'll need to look into a new tank. Is it not easier to cut out cock pit floor than remove the engine ?
Thanks

 

[RichardS]

If you had more insight your views might get accepted on here.

I suggested diesel bug and the use of Marine 16. The OP explained that he already uses Marine 16. I replied that diesel bug therefore sounds unlikely. You ridiculed that suggestion and called me a "walloper".

I was then first to suggest that a new fuel tank might be the best answer. You then agreed, as does Mistroma, as does the OP.

And your rejoiner to this debate, which started with your totally unwarranted and unprovoked personal attack on me, when all I was doing was trying to help a fellow forumite, is to suggest that I if I had "more insight my views might get accepted on here", when, it seems to me, that others (including you!) are agreeing with me.

You seem to have transferred your rudeness towards me from the other forum over to this forum .... but this is a technical forum for providing advice to other forumites and personal insults and vilification are unnecessary and embarrassing. Please take your leave. :encouragement:

Richard

 

[ctva]

...I had a stainless replacement constructed by someone near Dumbarton and included a small, easily emptied, sump to catch water and general crud. I did have to remove the engine but that wasn't a big problem. ...

Argyle Metal Services possibly?

 

[Mistroma]

Argyle Metal Services possibly?

I still have my archived records from my old boat. They were scanned before I sold her in case the new owner had any queries and lost the paper copies.

It was 1995 (how time flies) and the company was called "Argyll Manufacturing and Supply Ltd" in Alexandria. Probably long gone now or possibly had a name change to Argyle Metal Services (or Argyle might be a typo and it is Argyll).

 

[Mistroma]

Yes that is the pick up tube. I didn't actually remove it though. Thanks for the info about diesel bug.

I'll need to look into a new tank. Is it not easier to cut out cock pit floor than remove the engine ?
Thanks

Might be easier to remove the floor on your boat, it depends. However my old tank was almost the same width as the cockpit and engine access was wider. Hacking the cockpit floor out and rebuilding it would have been a lot of work. All I did was:

1) Disconnect fuel, exhaust, water and electrics (Not that technical)
3) Disconnect prop shaft and loosen engine mounting bolts
4) Put a solid piece of wood across the hatch
5) Push a long solid wooden beam (about 2.5m+) into the space above the engine and tie the end to the lifting point
6) Pull the beam up and tie to the top beam on the hatch
7) Tie counter balance weights at other end of the long beam until the engine lifts
8) Swing engine forward and put wooden blocks/wedges underneath the mounting points
9) Remove counter weights and slide beam on top of hatch slides forward a foot or so.
10) Repeat 7,8 & 9 until engine is clear.

I did use a chain hoist but really only used it as a fixed length lifting attachment.

Hope that this makes sense.


Robush

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Harry (and others )

I pumped all the diesel out of the tank today. Looked okay apart from at the end which was dirty. Then I put my hand in the tank and pulled out 2 handfuls of this sludge/corroded bits of tank!
Does that look bad? It does to me but I've never seen the inside of a tank before.

I'm wiping the inside of the tank with clothes just now. Seems quite rusty

Cheers
View attachment 81256

I'll echo the "YES" others have given. It looks like your tank has been rusting from the inside, which is how my tank went, with pretty much identical symptoms - it happened to me off on leaving Craobh Haven, fortunately close enough that I could anchor and get the workboat to tow me back in.

The problem is that diesel floats on water, so any water that gets into the tank from condensation or the odd drop getting in when you fill up settles to the bottom of the tank, where it can slowly rust the bottom of the tank. You find out one day when a rough passage and a part-empty tank combine to stir up the rust from the bottom of the tank, blocking the fuel pipes or filters. It can even be intermittent - a big flake blocks the bottom of the dip-tube in the tank when the engine is running, and falls off when the engine stops.

Obviously, cleaning the tank is the first thing to try. In my case, cleaning the tank removed the last layer of rust that was stopping the tank from leaking, and I ended up with many litres of diesel in the bilges, and had to replace the tank! SO, if you get the tank cleaned check carefully that the tank is still diesel tight!

 

[ctva]

... High tide is about 12.30 so we are aiming to get there about 11am

Well?:encouragement: