Koeketiene
Well-Known Member
:encouragement:
Best Bluewater Cruising boats?
- Thread starter alant
- Start date
:encouragement:
tcm
...
No, not really. Whatever the naysayers might say about noobies and so on, the ARC does at leat require that skipper/boats put their heads above the parapet and permit external inspection of safety etc beforehand. You are ready for a transat IF that guy whom you really respect as a skipper/instructor could come on board and say YES. That does not apply to all transat boats, and IMHO it is only by stipulatuon that it applies to all ARC boats.
steve yates
Well-Known Member
That logic only illuminates certain specifics to arc boats. It sheds no light on whether other independent boats are or are not similarly equipped.
This next bit is sheer speculation on my part, as I know nowt about it, but is it not possible,that a large part of these inspections are about other kit, and not about the boat itself? Eg, do you carry a life raft, safety harnesses, epirb, etc etc.
None of which has any bearing on the boats ability to handle an ocean? ( though mebbe a lot on whether you survive if it can't
) Do they check chainplates? Keel bolts? Standing rigging?
This next bit is sheer speculation on my part, as I know nowt about it, but is it not possible,that a large part of these inspections are about other kit, and not about the boat itself? Eg, do you carry a life raft, safety harnesses, epirb, etc etc.
None of which has any bearing on the boats ability to handle an ocean? ( though mebbe a lot on whether you survive if it can't
) Do they check chainplates? Keel bolts? Standing rigging?
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GrahamM376
Well-Known Member
That logic only illuminates certain specifics to arc boats. It sheds no light on whether other independent boats are or are not similarly equipped.
This next bit is sheer speculation on my part, as I know nowt about it, but is it not possible,that a large part of these inspections are about other kit, and not about the boat itself? Eg, do you carry a life raft, safety harnesses, epirb, etc etc.
None of which has any bearing on the boats ability to handle an ocean? ( though mebbe a lot on whether you survive if it can't
https://www.worldcruising.com/CMS/C...2016_Safety_Equipment_Regulations_ENG_Web.pdf
tcm
...
That logic only illuminates certain specifics to arc boats. It sheds no light on whether other independent boats are or are not similarly equipped.
This next bit is sheer speculation on my part, as I know nowt about it, but is it not possible,that a large part of these inspections are about other kit, and not about the boat itself? Eg, do you carry a life raft, safety harnesses, epirb, etc etc.
None of which has any bearing on the boats ability to handle an ocean? ( though mebbe a lot on whether you survive if it can't
Standing rig check is free as with the ARC, keelbolts would need boat ashore so not checked.
My logic is fine - ARC boats are inspected by someone else, non-ARC boats aren't. Of course, non-ARC boats could very easily be much better equipped than those on the ARC ... but they could just as easily (or of course, much more easily) not be at all as well-equipped and not ready for a long trip.
dom
Well-Known Member
Golly tcm; you're fast convincing me that the ARC is value for money; what with all those useful inspections, inclusive marina fees, helicopter displays, decent parties and what not! Any more and I might sign up
Koeketiene
Well-Known Member
What use are these ARC 'checks'?
The boats already crossed Biscay and made it to the Canaries.
If they weren't up to the job of an ocean crossing they would never have gotten to the Canaries in one piece. IMHO.
stranded
Well-Known Member
Surely that logic only works if the boats are tested to their limits on the crossing to LP. And if they are, a check for damage seems a very sensible precaution.
dom
Well-Known Member
Indeed; also worth bearing in mind that a redundancy of up to 4x is built into much of the equipment, so that impending failures should be apparent well in advance ....assuming a proper inspection is made.
Edit: I admit to a degree of surprise at the lack of a proper aviation-style once over (rigging, appendages, wobble boat on its keel, rudder bearings, etc) before a big crossing.
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Tranona
Well-Known Member
Doubt many non ARC cruisers do this - or even specifically check tot he level required by the ARC. Their checks are as much to do with covering their backs as to really preventing failures.
stranded
Well-Known Member
At the risk of being goody two shoes, our plan is to do all necessary upgrades this winter (new stove, 240v rewire, charger/inverter, electric winch, extended pushpit, electric loo (don't!), upholstery, mattresses, curtains, windlass, anchor and chain (cheers Neeves!) fire extinguishers, etc.etc) Then next winter to have an independent survey done to identify any replacements that are indicated. The rig we will replace as a matter of course, but an independent inspection of hull, seacocks, engine seems sensible so we can at least set off with everything in good order. Is there a name for this sort of a survey or do we just specify what we want (trouble being I will need help deciding what that is)?
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Don't think you will have a problem in determining what is sensible to check. The ARC requirements are a good basis for a check list and it is also useful to look at the coding requirements for MCA CAT O - although of course you might not be able to meet all of them. Then use an MCA Code surveyor.
Doubt many ocean voyagers, particularly those on limited budgets would go to that level of detail, relying instead on heir own common sense and survival instinct. However given the varying attitudes to risk and the lack of any formal minimum requirements or inspection, standards will inevitble vary widely.
dom
Well-Known Member
It's not really a trad survey in the sense that they are mostly required to provide a detailed assessment of structural soundness as opposed to readiness for a long trip. You'll prob be best with multiple surveyors: rigger, mechanicals etc. Also you will play a big part of this task in areas additional to what the ARC specifies -- this kind of thing:
- Chafe is your enemy in an ocean swell, so double check all halyards, furling lines, etc. It can be a waste of money replacing everything, so become really adept at connecting two lines together in order to mouse new halyards on the fly.
- Have you got two main halyards? If your boat is set up with a thin topping lift, then upgrade it to full halyard spec to create a spare.
- Long downwind passages place the mainsail on the spreaders where it can be chaffed to ribbons: attach long rectangular patches for the full length of where the sail rests on the spreaders and additional 200mm circles for where the sail meets the end of the spreaders. Plus spare patches for reefing points should you need them along the way.
- Rudder bearings: racers are pernickety about their rudder bearings, cruisers often forget them. Check for any steering stiffness with your boat heeled over on the wind, i.e. with the rudder loaded up. Does the movement feel clean and free? Also give the rudder a good wiggle and turn it manually with the boat out of the water. If in doubt: replace the bearings. Also replace if over six years old. Apart from being dangerous, gippy bearings will tear through valuable battery power.
- AP: is it a modern rate-sensor job? If not think about the wasted amp hours an old style fluxgate job is costing as it wanders along the ocean in large S shapes. You'll also benefit from a rock steady wind sensed functionality with the ability to steer to TWA, or AWA as circumstances require.
- Keel: when your boat is ashore, hop aboard and have your yard lift the boat 300mm or so (preferably in a cradle which may be an insurance requirement). Then get them to stick a few extra blocks of timber underneath the keel. Next expose all of the keelbots and a decent surrounding area to have clear vis of liner/ribs, etc. Finally, have the boat lowered onto the keel and gently rolled side to side. NO-zero-nada movement is what you expect to see in the keel joint, both inside and outside.
Much fun and good luck to you both
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stranded
Well-Known Member
It's not really a trad survey in the sense that they are mostly required to provide a detailed assessment of structural soundness as opposed to readiness for a long trip. You'll prob be best with multiple surveyors: rigger, mechanicals etc. Also you will play a big part of this task in areas additional to what the ARC specifies -- this kind of thing:
My point really is that all of these tasks alongside the loads of others that need doing are either in grey areas for the surveyor, or not within his remit at all. Moreover they are not really within any single person's competency.
- Chafe is your enemy in an ocean swell, so double check all halyards, furling lines, etc. It can be a waste of money replacing everything, so become really adept at connecting two lines together in order to mouse new halyards on the fly.
- Have you got two main halyards? If your boat is set up with a thin topping lift, then upgrade it to full halyard spec to create a spare.
- Long downwind passages place the mainsail on the spreaders where it can be chaffed to ribbons: attach long rectangular patches for the full length of where the sail rests on the spreaders and additional 200mm circles for where the sail meets the end of the spreaders. Plus spare patches for reefing points should you need them along the way.
- Rudder bearings: racers are pernickety about their rudder bearings, cruisers often forget them. Check for any steering stiffness with your boat heeled over on the wind, i.e. with the rudder loaded up. Does the movement feel clean and free? Also give the rudder a good wiggle and turn it manually with the boat out of the water. If in doubt: replace the bearings. Also replace if over six years old. Apart from being dangerous, gippy bearings will tear through valuable battery power.
- AP: is it a modern rate-sensor job? If not think about the wasted amp hours an old style fluxgate job is costing as it wanders along the ocean in large S shapes. You'll also benefit from a rock steady wind sensed functionality with the ability to steer to TWA, or AWA as circumstances require.
- Keel: when your boat is ashore, hop aboard and have your yard lift the boat 300mm or so (preferably in a cradle which may be an insurance requirement). Then get them to stick a few extra blocks of timber underneath the keel. Next expose all of the keelbots and a decent surrounding area to have clear vis of liner/ribs, etc. Finally, have the boat lowered onto the keel and gently rolled side to side. NO-zero-nada movement is what you expect to see in the keel joint, both inside and outside.
Much fun and good luck to you both
Cheers Dom - this is really helpful.
All halyards, furling lines, etc will be fairly new at the point of departure, all have mousing loops and it seems fairly easy - in harbour. We seem to have a surfeit of halyards - topping lift is dimensioned as main halyard. We have gen 1, then gen 2 for emergency inner forestay, spinnaker, then another which I have no idea what it is for but I have run another 12mm line up there just in case. I also plan on packing a couple of long lengths of dyneema as emergency stays so these could also be adapted with jackets in extremis.
Will get the sailmaker onto the patches.
Rudder bearings have been replaced this winter including a spare set for stores.
AP is an oldish ST6001 so fluxgate. I've been thinking about upgrading anyway as was going to buy a load of spares and don't want to do that for an obsolete/inefficient system so will look into cost/complexity of upgrade. Seems to work fine steering to wind in the conditions we have so far faced (nothing extreme) and Nooka steers herself to windward in even some quite shifty winds so long as they keep blowing without any need for AP/human intervention - I'd be happy to kip for a couple of hours and leave her to it. Though I'll need to test that again with new rudder bearings in case the old ones provided any unintended damping to help her out!
Great advice about the keel - she is due to go back in the water in a couple of weeks when she will need to be lifted to put the rudder back, so I'll talk to the yard about doing what you suggest as part of that.
And thanks Tranona - we are most definitely going to be on a budget once we set off, and I am sure that I will learn all those things that seasoned voyagers know over time. My rationale is that the more I can get done before we go, the less likely it is that everything will fail at once and the more chance I will have of learning by doing as we go along. Also, our budget will be what's left after this major blow-out, so we will know where we are and can be slightly less cautious in our contingency planning, so avoiding putting aside money that could be better spent on beer!
GrahamM376
Well-Known Member
If old linear drive (IIRC pre 1996) it would be a good idea to upgrade the gears to metal, service kit much cheaper than buying a new drive.
http://hudsonmarine.co.uk/index.php?module_display=41&pid=153386
stranded
Well-Known Member
Oh heck - thought that was going to be straightforward but a bit of searching suggests all the various RM AP configurations are bit like a game of 'GO!' - more combinations that atoms in the known universe, allegedly. It seems that we have the ST6002 SmartPilot with Gyro, from 2007. Is this a keeper or scrap; and does the plastic gears thing still hold?
GrahamM376
Well-Known Member
I "think" your linear drive should be OK at that age but suggest asking Raymarine about it, give them the serial number and they will tell you if it has the metal gears. We still use an outdated ST5000 autopilot without giro which works so well I have no intention of upgrading and yours is newer and presumably better so don't think you should have any worries about its performance.
alant
Well-Known Member
It's not really a trad survey in the sense that they are mostly required to provide a detailed assessment of structural soundness as opposed to readiness for a long trip. You'll prob be best with multiple surveyors: rigger, mechanicals etc. Also you will play a big part of this task in areas additional to what the ARC specifies -- this kind of thing:
My point really is that all of these tasks alongside the loads of others that need doing are either in grey areas for the surveyor, or not within his remit at all. Moreover they are not really within any single person's competency.
- Chafe is your enemy in an ocean swell, so double check all halyards, furling lines, etc. It can be a waste of money replacing everything, so become really adept at connecting two lines together in order to mouse new halyards on the fly.
- Have you got two main halyards? If your boat is set up with a thin topping lift, then upgrade it to full halyard spec to create a spare.
- Long downwind passages place the mainsail on the spreaders where it can be chaffed to ribbons: attach long rectangular patches for the full length of where the sail rests on the spreaders and additional 200mm circles for where the sail meets the end of the spreaders. Plus spare patches for reefing points should you need them along the way.
- Rudder bearings: racers are pernickety about their rudder bearings, cruisers often forget them. Check for any steering stiffness with your boat heeled over on the wind, i.e. with the rudder loaded up. Does the movement feel clean and free? Also give the rudder a good wiggle and turn it manually with the boat out of the water. If in doubt: replace the bearings. Also replace if over six years old. Apart from being dangerous, gippy bearings will tear through valuable battery power.
- AP: is it a modern rate-sensor job? If not think about the wasted amp hours an old style fluxgate job is costing as it wanders along the ocean in large S shapes. You'll also benefit from a rock steady wind sensed functionality with the ability to steer to TWA, or AWA as circumstances require.
- Keel: when your boat is ashore, hop aboard and have your yard lift the boat 300mm or so (preferably in a cradle which may be an insurance requirement). Then get them to stick a few extra blocks of timber underneath the keel. Next expose all of the keelbots and a decent surrounding area to have clear vis of liner/ribs, etc. Finally, have the boat lowered onto the keel and gently rolled side to side. NO-zero-nada movement is what you expect to see in the keel joint, both inside and outside.
Much fun and good luck to you both
Can you pls expand on the AP issue mentioned.
As you can see here, this unit seems to have flux gate & rate sensor, which seems to confuse/contradict your useful post.
http://www.simrad-yachting.com/en-GB/Products/Compasses/RC42-Rate-Compass-en-gb.aspx
dom
Well-Known Member
First to ohmaggie: the ST6002 is a reliable piece of kit with thousands and thousands of happy cruising miles under its belt -- nowhere even close to scrap!
Okay good question; when I said “old style fluxgate job” what I really meant was one without rate-sensor capability. One can think of it like this: imagine you are sailing along in a F3, flat water and on the wind. The boat heels in a puff and before you know it you’ve gradually shifting the wheel a smidge to compensate. You’ll not have even glanced at the compass.
Next imagine you're on a blast reach, 110 degrees, F6, a small asym up and with a big quartering sea. The stern lifts to a big wave and down the wheel goes, for you know well that the boat will soon try and screw up into the wind and that you need to act fast (“response” in AP world) and with a good bit of welly (“gain” in AP world).
Now imagine you lose all of your senses apart from the compass, lose half of your intelligence and also suffer a degradation in your neuro-response system (you might drink 5 pints of Stella to replicate this :very_drunk
. You have now entered old-fashioned fluxgate-only land! When the boat is rocking the compass bounces all over the place, so the first thing you must do is damp the thing down bit; the more violently the boat moves the more dampening the compass will need and the less you can be sure which way you’re really pointing. Let’s go back to that big wave again: it picks you up, but you don’t feel a thing. The boat starts to screw up into the wind and after a brief lag you fuzzily detect the change in course (damped fluxgate and you’re drunk) and eventually wind on a bit of rudder. By now your boat is swinging rapidly into the wind by which time you realise that you’re way off balance and ram the rudder down. Now the boat, at first slowly, then increasingly rapidly starts to fall off the wind. At this point you'll likely panic, slam the wheel the other way ….too late, gybe! Notice how the underlined words are all to do with sense, speed and intelligence.
Modern rate-sensor kit leaves all of this behind: inertia sensors provide near-instantaneous 4 dimension feedback to the AP brain: roll, yaw, pitch and acceleration. Solid state sensors (iPhones, insurance black boxes, etc) have brought the cost of this gear right down. In addition better chips and software mean that the computer can think faster and more clearly; ohmaggie mentions “Go” where just today a computer has defeated the reigning world champ for the first time. On top of this N2K provides a better central nervous system to connect the various bits of kit: rudder sensor, wind, rate sensor, fluxgate, computer, etc.
A fast thinking rate-sensor equipped AP will cleanly feel that that big wave, feel that it’s a big-un, quickly work out what to do, first tweak the rudder, spot that this has not only failed to arrest the return, it has failed to even slow it down, know to instantly slap on a heap of rudder, instantly sense that the boat is now coming off fast …and so on. Net net the boat is now scorching downwind like an arrow with big smiles all around.
This is safer, faster and the AP is no longer sawing away stressing itself, the boat and the crew.
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GrahamM376
Well-Known Member
Vastly overstated, much depends on the directional stability of the boat. Our previous boat also had an ST5000 and often had to be hand steered because the pilot couldn't cope, lazy "S" much of the time, would charge off course with even slight variations of wind speed. However, the current boat steers like it's on rails with exactly the same setup so don't write off a system because it's "old" technology.
